Prepare for a deep dive into the world of online marketing and leadership in the inaugural episode of the "Paid To Create" podcast. Host AJ Roberts turns the microphone on his co-host Sarah Jenkins, the dynamic CEO of Genesis Digital. Sarah's journey from personal training to building a SaaS empire is as inspiring as it is enlightening.
Sarah shares her experiences, including the challenges and triumphs, of navigating the online marketing landscape. From surviving Google slaps and mastering SEO, to transitioning to white hat marketing, Sarah's insights are invaluable to any aspiring entrepreneur or marketer.
Sarah also emphasizes the power and importance of female leadership, while confronting gender biases head on. She shares her strategies for building strong teams, balancing work and personal life, and the concept of "alpha female leadership."
This episode is a must-listen for anyone interested in online marketing, entrepreneurship, and leadership. Whether you're a seasoned professional or just starting your journey, you'll find inspiration, wisdom, and practical advice in Sarah's story.
Prepare for a deep dive into the world of online marketing and leadership in the inaugural episode of the "Paid To Create" podcast. Host AJ Roberts turns the microphone on his co-host Sarah Jenkins, the dynamic CEO of Genesis Digital. Sarah's journey from personal training to building a SaaS empire is as inspiring as it is enlightening.
Sarah shares her experiences, including the challenges and triumphs, of navigating the online marketing landscape. From surviving Google slaps and mastering SEO, to transitioning to white hat marketing, Sarah's insights are invaluable to any aspiring entrepreneur or marketer.
Sarah also emphasizes the power and importance of female leadership, while confronting gender biases head on. She shares her strategies for building strong teams, balancing work and personal life, and the concept of "alpha female leadership."
This episode is a must-listen for anyone interested in online marketing, entrepreneurship, and leadership. Whether you're a seasoned professional or just starting your journey, you'll find inspiration, wisdom, and practical advice in Sarah's story.
Sarah Jenkins (00:00):
Since my husband's passed away, I have tripled the company at least in revenue, and we've doubled the staff. So I'm not sure what you've been told prior, but let me tell you what I'm going to need and then you can tell me what service you have fits that need. And so they're like, "Oh shoot." That happens more often than not. And now I'm having a lot of fun with it because I like to go in and let people expect very little of me and then come out, hopefully surprised at how much I actually do know what I'm doing, and have the experience that they didn't expect I had.
(00:29):
Welcome to the Paid To Create Podcast where we dig into the secret strategies of successful creators making a lucrative living. So sit back, relax, and enjoy the show.
AJ Roberts (00:37):
I just have to tell you about Kartra, the marketing platform that has seriously transformed my business. You know how running a business can be insanely time-consuming? Well, Kartra has been a game changer for me. It's honestly like having an entire marketing team in my pocket. And what I love most is that it automates all the tedious daily tasks for me, from marketing to sales, to even customer experience. I can't believe how much time and energy I've saved since I started using it.
(01:03):
And get this, with Kartra, I can create websites, funnels, courses, membership sites, email campaigns, calendars, surveys, you name it. It's made managing my business so much simpler and more affordable. Honestly, I can't recommend Kartra enough. If you're curious, head to PaidToCreatPodcast.com/Kartra to start your trial. Trust me, you won't regret it.
AJ Roberts (01:25):
Welcome everyone to the Paid To Create Podcast. I'm AJ Roberts alongside me as always as my co-host Sarah Jenkins, and I'm actually going to turn the mic on her today and interview her as I think you guys should get to know her. She's the CEO of Genesis Digital creators of Kartra, WebinarJam and EverWebinar, which I am lucky to be a partner in. But Sarah, I figured we'll dive into your story and let the listeners learn a little bit about you today.
Sarah Jenkins (01:49):
So we'll avoid all the profanity, drama, murders. Great. We'll start with that.
AJ Roberts (01:53):
Yeah, let's give it PG-13. We don't get banned before we get started. So why don't we just go back to, obviously now virtual company employees all over the world, major SaaS business, but you didn't start in software. So why don't we go back to the beginning. What was your first venture in online marketing?
Sarah Jenkins (02:16):
Oh, shoot. Well, we learned SEO and we learned about websites, pages, emails slowly. I think one of the first questions when they joined the mastermind was how do you get an email, not just Sarah at Gmail, how do you get a professional email, Sarah@GenesisDigital? We had no idea how to do any of those things. So we started learning about the Internets and then taught fitness marketing back in the day. And then we had an online fitness product first for our followers from our blog. Very rudimentary, very beginning style. You do a blog, you do the content, you get the leads, and then you sell them a product, right?
AJ Roberts (02:54):
Yeah. So it's interesting there because you said you started to learn. For me, when I got started, I took a job running a health club and I was learning about sales, and then it was like, okay, what are the people who own this focused on? And they kept talking about marketing and things like that, and that's led me down my obsession with marketing. So I was like, oh, wait a minute, to sell something you actually have to have someone in front of you, to get that person in front of you actually have to market. So that was my first like, oh, the business is not the gym, the business is getting people to come in and sign up. The gym is the product. So for you, what was it that you said, oh, okay, we've opened this business and now we've got to get customers. When did you guys say, oh, we have to learn about SEO and blogging and all those things that were so popular back in the 2000s?
Sarah Jenkins (03:46):
Oh man. Well, my kids call me ancient, so apparently it was a really long time ago. Well, when I hear you say that, that's you thinking with your entrepreneurial brain, thinking of how the business owner thinks. Most people don't think like that, but entrepreneurs do routinely. So when I started doing personal training, it was like you get clients by referral, just like dentist, doctors, you get clients by referral, tell your friends and family about me. But then when the internet started happening, the dotcom boom and all that stuff, we started looking at, well, what's a webpage? What does it mean? What if we could get clients outside of people we know. We can't get a billboard, we can't get a magazine print ad. We did do the Valpak. That was pretty funny. But so we started to learn what's a website? What would be in email,? What does it mean to be online? And honestly, it started with Craigslist ads.
AJ Roberts (04:36):
Yeah. So you were leveraging Craigslist by advertising to get clients?
Sarah Jenkins (04:44):
Yeah. If you put something for free. Well, what we did was super funny. We did free models, personal training, and then when you met them you'd say, can I use you as a testimonial? And then do you have any friends that would want personal training? And back then, especially in Orange County, I mean about 30 year old single never married women that are looking at models with you are like, I want that trainer. And yes, we were a good trainer, but we also knew that's part of marketing.
AJ Roberts (05:13):
Cool. And then it just escalated from there. You just more did the more clients you guys got?
Sarah Jenkins (05:18):
Well, we were ahead because none of the personal trainers knew about websites either. We just started learning we can get clients on the internet with Craigslist. Okay, now we can get them on a website. We got the number one website in Orange County for personal trainers, and then we're like, well, shoot, we have too many clients to handle, we started outsourcing our clients to other trainers that we knew that were quality. And then they said, "Well, what are you doing? How are you getting all these clients?" So we're like, "Whoa, well let me tell you." And then after a while it became like, we need to actually charge you for us to tell you, because you're not only taking our clients, you're going to get better than us at it, you have more energy and we have something valuable to provide.
AJ Roberts (05:51):
So the transition came from essentially maxed out, and other people could see that, and then they wanted to pick your brain. That's the entrepreneur's worst thing to hear from someone, let me pick your brain for five minutes. But then you saw the opportunity like, oh, we could actually teach this and package what we've done and share it with others.
Sarah Jenkins (06:11):
Well, I think most people get into business for something good. We're doing Paid To Create, you're paid to create something as a doctor, whether it's health, service, medicine, whatever. If you're a lawyer taught to create court wins and documents and contracts. So for an entrepreneur, you're paid to create whatever you're passionate about. And if you're a personal trainer, I mean, you're trying to get someone fit or make their goals, lifting or look better. You're trying to get to help somebody, but then you end up making money from it, which is cool. So we take that to the next level. Now you're going to help other people make money and they can help more people. So you still have that mindset.
AJ Roberts (06:46):
So it's interesting because you mentioned you outsourced versus building a bigger team. And what was the decision there? Because a lot of people struggle when it comes to outsourcing, especially as they build their business. And trainers are a great example of this, but I look at it's anybody that is creating an income via their skillset, because they're getting paid to actually do the skill. So as a trainer, you're getting paid to train somebody. Well, you are limited by how many hours are in the day. The only way to multiply yourself in person is to expand with other people. Online, obviously you can put the information into something and sell it. So what was the decision for you guys to say, oh, let's outsource the training to other people, versus let's build a franchise, or let's build a huge gym or something like that.
Sarah Jenkins (07:38):
Well, we actually had small goals. So we had, let's say group training was just popular, which meant you didn't have one-on-one clients, you could train five clients at a time, six clients at a time if you were really good and everyone would still get really great results, you're not losing the quality there. But we wanted to give other clients, saw our website, saw our testimonials, a quality experience too. So we went to other trainers that were doing group training, because for them to fit one more person in their group of four means nothing to them and they still get that quality service, but we'll only take half the money. So we're providing the client, they do the training, it fits right into their schedule as it is, and we're making sure it's a benefit to both. We could have scaled and hired employees and stuff, but I think with fitness, it's ripe for stealing clients, once you know can train, you can take your clients and go to an agent you want, which is not the way we thought about it. We thought mutually beneficial. We'll give you a great trainer. You found us through this website. We're giving the trainer a good client. We'll take the money and pay everybody. So it takes the admin hassle out of the trainer's life.
AJ Roberts (08:33):
Yeah, absolutely. I think that's something to look at too, and just summarizing that, the headache of having to hire people versus, hey, you're already doing this. You're very good at it. Let us slide an extra client in there. We'll give you 50% or whatever. To that person it's like, oh, it's a free person that they're now getting 50% to you guys, 50% for doing nothing basically.
Sarah Jenkins (08:55):
Yep.
AJ Roberts (08:56):
What were some of the early challenges with the online stuff? With the SEO, the blogging, all the different components that you guys suddenly were implementing into the business?
Sarah Jenkins (09:07):
Well, we started cheap. We started using little babysitters we had for the girls to write articles on local stuff. Just, hey, write an article on Lake Forest and say Lake Forest 19 times and include a bunch of fitness stuff. And so we'd pay them to write an article while the kids were sleeping and it was this easy Google stuff before Google smacked everyone for doing that.
AJ Roberts (09:25):
Did that Google slap affect the business a lot? For me, and I have another friend, we learned through arbitrage that you could essentially create an affiliate site using the same name as the company you were promoting with a net or.gov extension or whatever we could get. And we could build a WordPress site, we could get it to rank. And it normally rank one or two depending on how good the main site was. And then of course, brand search, people would search and then they would click on our site, which had some articles and reviews and then they would purchase the product. So we were making a lot of money off of... We had a lot of sites in order to do it, but we were making sales every day. Google came along and just slapped that. I lost every site that was on page one. Did you guys experience a similar thing?
Sarah Jenkins (10:11):
We had that with local fitness for sure. SOCO Workout was not the number one fitness side anymore. It way jumped off the front and page. Google noticed we were doing that and it wasn't quality articles, we were just keyword stuffing to get the ranking, which is the tricks of the internet before we learned, oh, that's not okay. Oh, here's why it's not okay. Back then it was the wild west, you just do what you got to do. Now it's black cat, so you can't do that. Or gray area marketing where it's not pristine and blessed by the Google.
AJ Roberts (10:37):
Yeah. So do you guys pivot the marketing then go white hat? Or did you go different direction?
Sarah Jenkins (10:44):
Oh, we took a huge dive in sales for our fitness business, but our online fitness marketing business was ramping. So now we're like, okay, now we have something else to teach you, here's where Google has just punished all of us for doing all these things. We already learned, we already got hurt by it, so let's teach you how to not do that. So we actually used it to our benefit when the housing market crashed.
AJ Roberts (11:05):
Gotcha. So that's interesting because I know in around 2008 I was involved in a consulting company too, and it was like the market's crashing, but people were flocking towards us to say, what do we do? How do we do this? And so you guys naturally rode that wave and transitioned into the info coaching business?
Sarah Jenkins (11:27):
When your income is not guaranteed by your boss or your clients, your clients are losing income because they're real estate guys in their 20s making baller money now they're not making anything. When the internet has been smacked by Google and they said, your articles are actually no good, not providing any value, you really start to explore your other options. And that's when we did the fitness product online. But for us, I guess we had a lot of technical troubles with that.
AJ Roberts (11:50):
Yeah. You get into that a little bit.
Sarah Jenkins (11:53):
Well, it's embarrassing for me to say, but one of the first conversations, the first conversation that you and I had was I was hooking up our 1ShoppingCart account with our Automation Wiz and our website and stuff. And you had to do the API clicks perfect. You had to have the codes done. It was timed. And I was like, this is so out of my depth. I'm good at taking clients' money, making sure they have great training. That's my experience. So I was like, "Can you help me with this API thing?" And then I found out you're the strongest guy in the world. I was like, "How do you know about API and tech? And I'm sitting here struggling and I have a fitness marketing business. It's unfair."
AJ Roberts (12:27):
Yeah, I mean that was a weird call because it was one little thing was wrong in the 1ShoppingCart and it was going to prevent the whole launch.
Sarah Jenkins (12:34):
I couldn't find it.
AJ Roberts (12:36):
So it had come from, for me, basically when I learned marketing was everything. And marketing never stops. It's before the sale, it's during the sale, it's after the sale, especially if you're in a reoccurring business. The thing is back then is there wasn't tools to do all the things you needed to do. So you'd have these ideas, okay, how do we get more money during a sale? The average order value, how do we increase that? Okay, so if someone buys this, they may want this. So we want to present them with a secondary offer. Oh, how are we going to do that? We actually have to store the credit card information securely in the backend, pass it to the next webpage. If the person says yes, grant them access. The complexity was huge. So for me it was like we would have these ideas, but we didn't have anybody to figure it out. So I just figured it out.
(13:23):
So it was funny because to me, it was the least important thing that I did because I was all about the strategy, all about the actual campaigns. But back then, without the tech, you couldn't make it happen. And it was so expensive to try to hire people. And that was my first website. There's a three-page website that had built that cost $25,000. And I'm sure you guys experienced the same thing before WordPress. WordPress changed the game for everything.
Sarah Jenkins (13:52):
WordPress made it easy for the average user, which is what we hope to continue.
AJ Roberts (13:56):
Yeah.
Sarah Jenkins (13:56):
Oh, man. Yeah, you can't do what you want to do in marketing without the tech. But I think you as a business owner, saw when you were in the gym, you're like, okay, so somebody comes in and they want the membership Monday through Friday till 5:00 PM but if they want the increased membership, then they get nights and weekends then if they want the free towel or the water bottle. So you can see upsells in every business you do. For us, it just happen to be fitness, which is really cool because we could easily see how to upsell someone on something else they need and how to provide that next item.
AJ Roberts (14:24):
Yeah. So moving into internet marketing and SaaS, what were some of the things that carried over for you? Some of the biggest lessons that you learned that set the foundation for the success that you've had?
Sarah Jenkins (14:39):
Well, for physical products, for coaching products, you are the brand. You are the face. So software you don't necessarily have to be, you don't see as much success if you're more like Nike as opposed to Tony Robbins. But you get more easier recurring income because your software is doing a job that you've promised it does, most of the time. And then you don't have to put out the next product, think of the next product. So it's far less creative, but it's a lot more work heavy in the beginning.
AJ Roberts (15:07):
Yeah, I mean it's expensive to set up.
Sarah Jenkins (15:09):
Well, it's a nice way of saying it. Yeah. Work, time and money expensive to do software.
AJ Roberts (15:14):
So let me ask you this, knowing what you know. So info marketing, information marketing to me is one of the easiest businesses to get into. And the reason I say that before anybody freaks out is, is the barrier to entry is literally you just have to have an audience to sell something to. You can deliver a Word doc to them, people don't care. They buy the information. How it's delivered is very often not a concern of theirs. And in fact, a lot of people would rather have a one-page document that gives them exact steps than to watch 40 hours of video to try to figure it out. The profit margin as well on an information business is usually more like 80% profit. So it's a huge profitable industry. SaaS is not so much. So what has been the driving factor for you with software? Why do it? Why continue to do it?
Sarah Jenkins (16:14):
Well, back in the day when we did the Video Boss launch. It was our information product hugely profitable. Once you do the one course, you sell it to as many people as you can. And then all that is profit. I mean, after you pay the merchant fees and your website builder, but when we did that, the Bossathon, eight hours of video hosting and it costs $100,000, we're like, shoot, there's got to be a better way to host video and sell products, especially our products. So we'd like to create that and if we create something that's valuable, we could sell it and it would help other entrepreneurs. It goes back to sort of the beginning. Usually you get paid to create something that's your passion or something that you want to do. And for us, a lot of it was helping people. We did the video boss, which taught you all about making video and video makes more money than anything online. We actually still believe that, but we're trying to tell people that are uncomfortable on camera. You don't have to be on camera. You can do slideshow, you could do AI voiceovers, but you still need to be video. And so that led us to create the very first software because we saw the need so glaringly obvious to us and we wanted to use it.
AJ Roberts (17:21):
Yeah, And I having fortunately being in some of those conversations being a fly on the wall and giving input and feedback, one of the things that I saw was we were able to do things that we couldn't teach to the audience. And the reason was either we had the skillset to be able to do... It was a skill that they didn't have like programming or high end video editing or something like that. And so yes, you could spend the time teaching them that. But to do a launch and to make all of that happen often we would spend hundreds of thousands of dollars. And the upside of that was we would make millions, but the average person struggled. They didn't have the resources, they didn't have the funding. So they would try to essentially duplicate our efforts and they couldn't, they couldn't build what they needed to build.
(18:12):
And so, one of the things we noticed was the software we were using, it really didn't work that well. And then it was like the prices just kept going up. And now knowing what I know now I understand because most software companies rely on other people's money to build it. They're not self-funded, they raise money, they burn the money, they go raise more money. So oftentimes their pricing is not what it should be, it's what they think they can get. So oftentimes it's very underpriced.
(18:43):
And I won't say any names, but there's a video hosting platform that is notorious for having unlimited for 99 bucks a month. But if you hit a certain bandwidth threshold, they'll send you a bill for $3,000 and then say you need to leave the platform.
Sarah Jenkins (19:02):
Weird.
AJ Roberts (19:03):
We saw that, and I think that was one of the driving forces with the software was like, if we're going to be teaching people how to do things, they need to be able to actually do them.
Sarah Jenkins (19:13):
Well, and the thing with software is it takes away some of those guessing games. It takes away some of the tech issues with the API. If your merchant account broke back in the day, oh man, you could make no sales for two days and not notice because nobody told you anything broke. You just had to go, "Wait, why have I ended up no sales for two days? Oh shoot, the API's broken again." So we fixed those kinds of issues for people that are not tech-savvy and didn't know their way around those different features. But also we took away the need to put all those features together by doing Kartra in the first place. And then they didn't have to get the programmers and the pro editing necessarily, they could just put it on as modules and a membership site. So we've really created something fantastic along our own hard times.
AJ Roberts (19:52):
Everything gets easier and I don't think people remember what it was like before. So I always laugh when the airplane, the wifi doesn't work and people are having meltdowns. And 10 years ago there was no wifi. So these are the kind of things that it becomes an expectation. Drag and drop. Simple this, simple that. And I don't think people realize the fact that you can build an entire website funnel, set up a product, all of that in literally one day if you worked your butt off. That's huge. It used to take months to build these things. We'd be up till 4:00 AM the day before a launch checking everything because it's just that complex.
(20:35):
But I want to shift gears a little bit because one of the skills that I've seen you as the CEO, as a female entrepreneur do, which is phenomenal, is being able to build really strong teams around yourself. What are some of the things that you have done that you think have helped bring in a players into roles that allow your job to be easier?
Sarah Jenkins (21:03):
Well, I mean, yourself included, you've worked for me many times, partner with me now, work with me for fun. We hang out. I mean, you like being around me, so there must be something there. But as far as my staff goes, we start at the very, very beginning. You are in the industry. You're paid to create something that you're passionate about. So you start with fitness and it's to help somebody look better or feel better. And if you make money in the process, great, because you have to make money to live. But it's the same thing with employees. It has to be mutually beneficial. Am I paying enough that it makes sense for you? What job are you providing? Can I lift you up and show you that there's opportunity in my business as well as what you're doing now, but for future growth? And if I can do all those things we'll have a very happy partnership.
(21:40):
And so I look at all of it as partnerships even anyone that enters a customer service ticket or enters a chat to service a client of mine is just as important as I am. They're doing something in that day to bring in the revenue and help the client. The reason we built the software was to help the client, the reason we have employees is to help the families to help grow revenue for the shareholders. So it's got to be always that beneficial mindset and that mentality of lifting each other up and you'll all grow together.
AJ Roberts (22:08):
Yeah, I love that. I think that for a lot of people that's unusual because a lot of people have the, you are here to do a job that I pay you to do. And if you don't like it, you can leave. They see it as I pay you, that's what you get from me and I get from you, your hours. So to have that mindset of how do we fit together beyond just the transaction, I think is key. On the flip side, what are some things you've experienced that make someone not so good? What are some red flags? What are things to look for people that aren't the right fit? Because I know you've had your fair share of those and they've been sometimes very expensive lessons.
Sarah Jenkins (22:49):
Well, I work really, really hard when I fire someone, if I ever fire someone to make sure I'm really thinking about it humbly, because this is their income, their family, everything they count on to provide housing for their children, it's on my company if they work for me. So I take that very, very seriously. But if somebody isn't subscribing, well, I guess the mutual respect. If I see supervisors who are being demeaning or they're not listening to their own. We've had some people would just start screaming at their manager and I'm like, what in the world? In world can you scream at somebody and make it out okay? I don't know what you're thinking that you think that's an acceptable response to a hopefully productive criticism, but even a harsh criticism, be able to handle it. So I think a lot of our staff has to go through that mutual respect mentality. And if they just don't have it, then they really don't make it very far.
AJ Roberts (23:43):
Now, something that's interested, and I'll highlight this because we've talked about this off camera many times, and one thing you have in the company is a coach to help people with their personal development and to help them grow individually. So they can have crucial conversations, they can deal with conflict, they can manage and control themselves. Almost emotional intelligence training. For you, why is that important? Because a lot of people think that, hey, this is my company, I'm not responsible for that stuff. What was the trigger for you to say, you know what? I'm going to take some of that responsibility on and help these people grow as individuals, as well as employees?
Sarah Jenkins (24:24):
Well, if you're looking to be a good leader, if you're looking to be a strong leader, which I didn't have a choice in doing, I don't think I was a strong leader before. I think Andy was a strong leader. I think he was a great leader for our family and the company. But when that hole was there after he had passed away, then I had to fill it somehow. And being in a big family, a big religious family, which is really fun, having as many kids as I have, I've got five. If you don't have, not just the mutual benefit, but then the instruction with the love, your kids are going to resent you. They've certainly gone through those periods. I've got teens now that, we'll see what happens. But we're guiding with as much love as possible.
(24:59):
So what happened was, I talked to Evan Pagan and he said, "You need to go to your employees now that Andy has passed away and everybody is feeling the loss, they're feeling the grief. It's your husband, it's your father of your kids. But for them it was their boss. So they actually do look up to him. They actually work for you for a reason. They like being there. Most of our staff stay for years and years. So you need to actually go and make sure they're okay too, even though it's not necessarily your job, even if it's not comfortable. If you want them to stay with you, if you don't want them to be wildly fearful of their future with you, if you want them to stay in their job and stay happy and grounded, get a counselor and see if you can meet some of their needs emotionally." Well there's law of reciprocity, they'll respect it. They'll like it. They'll feel more loyal and dear to you in the company. And you did look beyond the revenue. You spent a little money to make sure they were okay because they are in a hard situation.
AJ Roberts (25:48):
I mean, that was a very hard time for everybody. Yourself included. Obviously I know a lot because I went through it with you.
Sarah Jenkins (26:00):
You were in the room.
AJ Roberts (26:01):
But for you, you mentioned that you didn't feel like you were a good leader before.
(26:12):
Just to be clear, you were the vice president of the company. You were involved in it daily. So it's not like you were on the sidelines. You were heavily involved from the beginning. And like you mentioned earlier, we'd worked on and off together for over a decade. So it wasn't as if you just all of a sudden were like, "Oh, okay, now go figure out what this is doing." You were integrated into the company, you managed a lot of people and were involved heavily. Instead of sitting back and saying, okay, I'm going to step away and process everything and I'm going to take my time and just I'm going to allow someone else to run the company. What made you decide to step into the CEO role? Because I know we had a lot of conversations. You had a lot of doubt. I'm a female, I was the wife of the founder. Because I remember saying to you, well, if you think you should, you should. But what was it that even made you start to feel that this was the right path for you and the company?
Sarah Jenkins (27:14):
Well, you could take it two different ways. You could take it. I've always been a very strong supporter. So if you look at the pastor's wife, or for me, I was Andy's, so the boss's wife. So VP, I was controlling a lot of things. I was doing payroll, but my main job was to support and uplift Andy, the boss, my husband, and then support and uplift the people that worked for him. So they felt good working there. They made sure they were heard without bothering Andy. My job was to completely support him.
(27:37):
So then stepping into what would be the leadership role, I looked at it the same way. My job is still to encourage and support and uplift my staff, but from a revenue perspective, I could hire out the CEO business and go sit on a beach. And that probably would've been lovely for a while, would've gotten bored. But also it's not financially worth it. So if I hire a CEO that's not me, it doesn't have the heart of the company, it doesn't have the encouragement and the challenge I can give my employees, then I'm paying for something that I could have done and done better, I think. Maybe if I'd hire a CEO, I'd have a little bit more money right now, but I think the profit margins be lower because the turnaround would be higher. Because that is one thing I do do really well is I hire good, strong people to come alongside me and build the company. To me, there is an org chart, but it is not necessarily a hierarchy, it's a partnership. We're all growing this thing together no matter what level you're on, communication wise, New York chart. So that's why I had to turn it around and say, okay, if I hired it out, financially, it's not as wise as a move.
(28:37):
So if you look at, going back to the counseling thing, if my employees are happier and more loyal and working with people that they know have connected with on the internet, they're going to stay longer. It's going to save me a lot of money. Hiring is expensive, firing is more expensive, and then replacing that person is expensive. There's the learning curve. It's a software. They're not loyal anymore. So they might not give me their best effort. What I have in a lot of my employees that I've certainly felt, or they've told me is that they are happy to be there. And so happy workers give me better work.
AJ Roberts (29:12):
So one of the things as VP that you made the decision was to create a virtual company 100%. And I remember we had an office, we had a dozen or so people there.
Sarah Jenkins (29:26):
We did.
AJ Roberts (29:28):
And one day it was like we were going back to work from home, which I couldn't love more because I'm a hermit and I love to be in the cave, studying, creating, and then come out, present it to the world and then go back to my cave. So that was a big happy moment for me.
(29:40):
But now having as many employees as you do and global staffing as we have, what was the decision to go virtual and what has been for those that maybe thinking about it, COVID created a lot, but a lot of people have forced their staff to go back to work or have a hybrid schedule. For those that may be thinking about it, I think it would be good for you to share your thoughts and opinions on the right way to do it and share your lessons learned from it.
Sarah Jenkins (30:14):
Well, I think it starts back at the original hiring. If you're hiring the quality people that can give you the work that you need, I don't need to micromanage, I don't need to see that you're at your desk at 8:00 AM and leaving at four or five, I don't need to see you in the office, so to speak.
AJ Roberts (30:27):
So you don't have spyware on that computer watching?
Sarah Jenkins (30:30):
I do not. No. I've thought about it, but it creeped me out a lot. Well, I don't want that at my computer. So I have it on my kids, but it's cool. But no, I don't like to micromanage for the most part. If somebody's not succeeding in their role, then I'll micromanage for a moment to see if they can can then succeed, or did they have to go somewhere else? And that's mutually beneficial too. If they're not succeeding, they're not going to be happy and fulfilled. They don't belong in that role. It's best for them out to be there.
(30:55):
But with the remote thing, yeah, I remember I came to the office and I sent everybody home. I was like, you go home, you come here. And I was not in charge at all. And Andy was like, oh-oh, I was done with the shenanigans, the office lunches I'm always paying for. Andy's home late. I miss my husband. We have a baby, she doesn't get to see your dad all the time. One of our employees snuck into the office had a pool party at night. So that's like, oh, liability. Oh, sweet P, you're such a teenager, I can't have that. So if you work from home and you want to do your laptop work on the computer at the pool, you go for it. We have a new employee who's worked at Google and he said, "Man, the campus was really great. It was like a playground." I said, "Actually with Genesis Digital, you have that same opportunity. You can take your computer and go straight to a playground if you want. Isn't that great?" And he's like, "Yeah, funny."
AJ Roberts (31:43):
Yeah, it is nice. If you want a nap, you got your own bed. If you're hungry, you got your own food, you got exactly what you want. You create your own environment.
Sarah Jenkins (31:52):
It used to be unique selling proposition. I was like, hey, I could actually, well... This is me sort of writing trends again, when I sent everybody home, I'm like, there's less insurance, there's less liability, there's no office costs, there's no home internet costs. Since then, things have changed. Now I have to provide the internet for my employees. You have to provide them a supplement if they need to work. But those all laws came later. So I saved a ton in the beginning. And if somebody was working from home, they're not buying lunches out, they're not paying for gas, they're not sitting in their commute, they have better home lives. So it was a mutually beneficial thing before COVID made it popular and I lost all my edge.
AJ Roberts (32:24):
So knowing what with the home stuff, and I think the one thing I'll add is you mentioned earlier, the right people seem to find... Some people need an office, because they're very extroverted. If they're at home, they get lost. They need to be around people. If they're not on conference calls because they need connection, they don't usually do well. But would you say there's even a need? Would you ever have an office? Is there a need for an office?
Sarah Jenkins (32:58):
No. I don't see myself ever going to an office. If you have a need to be social. We did have one employee that was like, "Hey, I'm not thriving here. I'm lonely. I'm at home all the time. I've got nowhere to go." She lived in a rural area, so she felt like her work life was killing hers, a person, which as an extrovert it is. So we encouraged her to go get a WeWork desk and we would happily supplement that cost. So if you are social and you still are exploring work from home, work socially, go work at a WeWork office, go find people to go hang around that have similar interests or can uplift you as a person and feed that energy that you need. But the work from home thing, the work wherever you want is not going anywhere.
AJ Roberts (33:36):
Yeah, that's a great point. There's so many with co-working spaces. There's so many opportunities to be in a office environment that's not your office. And it may actually be better because if you're single when you're in that environment, you don't end up dating anyone from work. I remember when I taught Facebook, one of the things they said was like, when two people at Facebook start dating, they have to sign a contract that says if they break up, they both have to leave the department. Because if they're dating within the same department, they both have to leave to prevent any issues. So this super interesting there.
(34:11):
Looking at your role as the CEO, being a female, we go to a lot of places and there's not many female CEOs that are in comparison to males. When we go to these events, the masterminds or conferences, usually the majority of speakers, the majority of the audience are male. Go even further. There's very few female CEOs who have built an eight figure business. Valued over nine figures, whatever you want to say. What has been some of the hardest things? Because obviously you knew when you stepped in, there was going to be challenges. You knew there would be stress that you haven't experienced before. But what are some things that you've faced that you have been surprised by or you weren't expecting?
Sarah Jenkins (35:04):
So many things. Typically, the male is the breadwinner still, I mean, in America, statistically, that's just the way it is. And then men have been in the workforce longer, so more of them are men. So when the CEOs are in their 50s and 60s, because they've been in the workforce a lot longer. And 40 years ago, their wives were at home having their kids, which is totally great. Nothing wrong with that at all. But now it's changing a little bit, so it's more equal. So women are like, oh yeah, I can have a kid and then go back to work. So that's a new thing in the last 50 years, which is great. But that's why we don't see many people in the boardroom masterminds. And it's a little disappointing, because I'm always trying to look for myself when I'm in the masterminds. So if I have a question and I'm in a room of 70 men and 20 women, I'll gravitate towards the women and say, well, what do you do with your business? And a lot of times they're not the ones on stage. They're not the ones that are leading some of the conversations, which is disappointing. As far as things that surprise me? I don't know.
AJ Roberts (36:06):
Challenges. Being a female in the CEO role, what are challenges you've had to really fight. I'm trying to lead you here, cause -
Sarah Jenkins (36:15):
You already know.
AJ Roberts (36:15):
Yeah. Yeah. I just mean you-
Sarah Jenkins (36:19):
You know me really. So, that's fair.
AJ Roberts (36:19):
You've mentioned before, certain conversations you've had with people underestimating you, they're acting like, "Oh, you're just a woman. Or Oh, it's just Andy's wife." Those two combined, you've faced that many times in many conversations, not just with one person-
Sarah Jenkins (36:36):
Most.
AJ Roberts (36:36):
It's been a reoccurring conversation you and I have had about that.
Sarah Jenkins (36:41):
Well, it used to frustrate me a lot and now it's one of my favorite things. It's actually become something I have a lot of fun. I have a shirt that say, underestimate me, that'll be fun. But I do understand that Andy was the leader and he certainly set me up for some giant success. When we got married, he didn't marry me because he had all the money. I had my own million-dollar business. He married me because he thought we would be a power couple. We could really support each other and combine our collective strengths, me and admin and happiness and accounting and leadership and creativity.
(37:11):
So when I go into these meetings after being Andy's wife, I've had man, so many where it's me in a room of nine gentlemen in our 50s, and I'm 32. I'm like, "Hey." And so they'll start telling me like, "Oh, okay, so you're taking over this business and here's how we're going to help you learn how business works and help how to grow." And I was like, "Okay, great. I think you've been misled. Since my husband's passed away, I have tripled the company at least in revenue and that we've doubled the staff. So I'm not sure what you've been told prior, but let me tell you what I'm going to need and then you can tell me what service you have fits that need." And so they're like, "Oh shoot." That happens more often than not. And now I'm having a lot of fun with it because I like to go in and let people expect very little of me and then come out, hopefully surprised at how much I actually do know what I'm doing and have the experience that they didn't expect I had.
AJ Roberts (38:08):
Yeah. So I think it's important, especially for hopefully the men listening start to go, okay, maybe I shouldn't underestimate anybody that's in front of me, but for the women listening, what is some advice you have for them? Because juggling five kids, you mentioned earlier you have a large family, you are a mom, you are a CEO, you are a mom, took all the employees technically too. The way you look at it, you take that responsibility on. What are some things that you would say to a female who who's maybe starting or struggling in her role just to continue to persevere, to continue to keep going?
Sarah Jenkins (38:52):
Well, the mom guilt is huge. We have that everywhere. I even had one of my nannies say, I don't really want to work here anymore because even though my son is here at the house every day with the kids and goes to the same school as the kids, I only see him for two or three hours giving him personal attention. I don't feel good about it. I was like, well then we have to change your schedule, because I can't have that. I don't want another mom working for me that doesn't feel good about it.
(39:11):
But she didn't also give herself the balance she needed. So she didn't say, okay, well my son's at school, I can get stuff done for Sarah. And then when my son's out of school then take those hours. She couldn't find the solution to her own problem. I helped provide that for her. But that's another story.
(39:27):
So I think a lot of moms come in and they say, oh shoot, I've got this baby. I've got to do lunches in schools and then homework. And they're not providing themself the care for their kids. I'm not saying go hire nanny, saying, what can you do to lower your own bandwidth so you can focus on your company where it's most important, where you can give the best value, give your kids love and attention they deserve. You have to be very compartmentalized and very organized and where you're going to put your space and your energy, including for yourself. There's not a week go by, I don't get my nails done.
AJ Roberts (39:55):
Yeah. Let's talk a little bit about that, creating bandwidth, because I think that it goes back to originally the outsourced idea you had, which was like, I don't want to create more work for myself, but we don't want to lose out on this revenue, so let's create a good partnership. How is that transferred into your home life? Because you didn't always have nannies, you have a lot of people in your life that allow you to focus on what's important and when you have time to spend quality time with people. So what are some things you do to make sure that you have "balance," even though true, we know it's not an even scale, but balance and sanity?
Sarah Jenkins (40:36):
Balance enough that I can get behind it. So if I'm asking myself, giving myself those pause moments, right? So okay, this week, am I giving my kids the attention they deserve? In what ways could I show it to them? So Thursday I'm going to make dinner with the kids. Saturdays we're going to have a video game day on the couch. So I'm purposefully putting that into my calendar of this is the times where I'm going to be fulfilled as a mom, and they're going to get the time for me that I think they need. Some weeks they need more than I was able to give. And some weeks they needed less and I was sitting around waiting for them to play with me. Usually that's not the case. Usually we're all very busy.
(41:08):
But the same thing with your company. So, I've got a book coming out in, I think June. And I was just talking to a PR person she said, "Well, we can get you onto TV shows and morning shows and articles and stuff, but we need you to write a bunch of articles." I said, "Well, that's a nonstarter, not going to spend more of my time not talking to my employees I have now, my kids I have now, giving my husband the attention he deserves. Now that's just not going to fit. I'm never going to sit down and write an article at this stage of my life." Maybe if I'm CEOing less or my kids a little older, then I'll spend a little bit more time writing. But the balance thing, you've got to give yourself some breaks, man, some credit.
AJ Roberts (41:45):
Yeah, I think one of the things I learned early was, I call it outsourcing the $20 an hour tasks. Once you know what you can make per hour, and it's not what you think you can make, it's what you actually make. So what did you make last year? Divide that by how many days a week you work, divide that by the hours that you work. If you work 40 hours a week, what's that number? And if it's $100 an hour or even $50 an hour, you shouldn't do anything that you can pay someone less than that to do for you. And it's a very difficult concept to understand because you think to yourself, well, I'm not going to pay someone to cook my food, for example. Oh, I'm not going to use a meal service.
Sarah Jenkins (42:25):
But you could.
AJ Roberts (42:26):
But if you prep your food, it takes two to three hours. So if you get paid 50 bucks an hour, that's 150 bucks. You can buy your entire food for the week for less than 150 bucks. The key is you have to know how to leverage those three hours that you just bought yourself, because essentially you buy back your own time. And the mistake people make is they buy it back and then they don't do anything with it. So the guilt sets in. Like, "Oh, I'm just sitting on the couch not doing anything, I should just do that myself." You have to know if you have to learn that you buy back time to then use that time either for the business or for yourself or for your family.
(43:04):
And I think one of the things I've noticed with you, and correct me if I'm wrong, but you pretty much live and die by your schedule now. You always say, "If it's on my calendar, it'll get done." Has that been a big thing for you to get organized like that? Because as a creative, I controlled chaos, I say. And sometimes when my calendar's full, it almost gives me anxiety. So is that something you've learned to love?
Sarah Jenkins (43:36):
No. So we started with an in-home personal assistant. And so personal assistant would come in and do payroll and then do the dishes and then tag out the trash and leave by noon. So we had a bunch of things done in the house that we weren't doing anymore, but back then it was much, much cheaper. But we paid for those services for the hour and they did whatever we needed them to do. So we slowly figured out what we didn't need to do. When we were on stage of the Commitment Summit. I said, why are you doing things on Sunday to take away from your business or your children? Why are you folding your own laundry? Good Lord, I think there's a service. Unless you're in the super rural areas, that's pretty affordable to get it done. Even an in-home personal assistant that will come and pick up your kids' toys for you, fold your laundry, load your dishwasher and leave, how much could that possibly cost? And how many hours of frustration will that buy you? One mom I was talking to doesn't homeschool anymore because she said, "Listen, I'd rather be a good mom. I'm not a good teacher. And now I'm not being a good teacher and I'm not being a good mom." I'm like, oh, well, she knows where she needs to put her time and her limits. So I think you grow into it. You have to.
AJ Roberts (44:38):
Yeah. Yeah. I think it's one of the things I was guilty of was having a partner at home and expecting them to want to do all those things. Well, you're at home, so why don't you do the dishes and the laundry? And then you realize that they don't want to do that either.
Sarah Jenkins (44:56):
That's so weird. She doesn't want to do the dishes.
AJ Roberts (44:59):
And when they don't do it, they have a lot more time for you. And so that's one of the things I learned. So I didn't necessarily do it to buy back my time, I did it to free up times that I could spend with my partner.
Sarah Jenkins (45:14):
Increase happiness.
AJ Roberts (45:15):
Yeah. Let's talk about your book a little bit, because what, first of all, what's the title of it?
Sarah Jenkins (45:20):
Working title is Alpha Female Leadership. Cool.
AJ Roberts (45:23):
And what made you decide to write a book?
Sarah Jenkins (45:27):
Officially, book lends credibility to you. I like books. I love movies, but I don't learn or remember a lot about movies. I just enjoy that time watching them. But books I really gravitate towards, maybe it's learning style. And I remember parts, different books that really have changed the way I've been thinking about things.
(45:44):
And I don't see a lot of women in roles that are, I won't even say comforting, but enthusiastically challenging. So when I'm looking at other women CEOs and I don't know very many, and I'd like to know more, but there aren't as many and they're harder to get a hold of. And a lot of times on a big stage they come across very, very fake and very, "I'm just a millionaire and it's great." And I'm like, well, I'd like to know how you got there though. I want to know more of when you're speaking what I can take home to change my own life or my own business. And I just don't see that very often. I'd love to see that more often.
(46:14):
So I'm doing the book so that other women can feel like they can step up and start being that leader for whoever's in their tribe or whatever you want to call it. And alpha has got a negative connotation to it, but for me it's not, it's that almost mothering guidance of here's where we're going to go find the food. Here's where we're all going to be protected. Everyone will be great over here, trust me. And then when they get there, everyone's happy. Including lifting up other females into being a leader in their own industries.
AJ Roberts (46:46):
For you, what does it mean to be a leader?
Sarah Jenkins (46:50):
You have to get off any pedestals you have, mine have all been knocked down. I've made every mistake I think you can make and learn from it hopefully. So I'm not standing on some sort of pedestal saying, I've got it all figured out, I know everything. I know a lot because I've done a lot of the wrong things or had a lot of failures and I've had a lot of wins. To be learning all the time and asking for help everywhere. So you and I will sit and brainstorm about a podcast like this a couple of times before we'll actually film it because we want to just talk it out. We want to think of all the things we want to get through on an interview that's going to be most impactful, most helpful.
AJ Roberts (47:24):
Yeah. So it's interesting because I think that you mentioned those that you don't necessarily relate to. And a lot of that is because what I've seen is that they almost play into the female role. It's not playing into femininity, it's playing into the like, oh, I'm just pretty and knowing that that gets attention. And I don't think there's anything wrong with it, but I know that for you, you very don't want to be seen as a female CEO, you just want to be seen as a CEO. Do you think that that's, when you look at Alpha Leadership, is that where you're steering people? It's like making your mark not because you're female, but because you are a boss.
Sarah Jenkins (48:20):
Because you're quality. I have been a fitness trainer. I have been fit and blonde and single and 20 in Southern California, nothing could have gone better, but I certainly didn't live that life. I immediately got married, I started a business, I was home on the computer. And then personal training others not going to the beach and playing volleyball in my bikini because it's just not where my motivation is and that's not what's going to help others. That feeds my self-esteem, my ego, but I don't have any need for that. Again, it's probably all those wonderful failures that I had in the beginning, but it taught me that that is so shallow and unimportant. That can be somebody's marketing shtick and that might work for them, but that's never going to work for me. I do not want to be a company of software because I'm a female. I want to be a company of software because it's a quality software and it gives good value, it'll help somebody.
AJ Roberts (49:05):
Yeah, I love that. I think that that's important, especially because as the world kind of moves forward and it's hard to predict where we are going or how things are going to be, but when you look at it, I think that's really, really key is to say gender doesn't define roles. Roles don't define gender. And so being a leader or being a CEO, there's traits and qualities and characteristics, and it doesn't matter whether you're male or female or whatever you identify as. What matters is that you execute in certain ways in order to essentially get things done, because that's how you build anything. It's how you build a good life. That's how you build a big business. It's by actually having the idea and then actually taking that and creating something with it. It's the execution of the idea that matters, and to be able to do that individually and then at scale with a team, it takes someone who has a level of confidence and a level of clarity that again, it doesn't matter whether you're male or female, what matters is that you have a sense of direction and purpose and people can essentially get on that train.
Sarah Jenkins (50:22):
I mean, same thing, if you're a mom at home and you're having that drive to get your house in order, get your kids in school. You've got your dinner prepared for your husband. There's absolutely nothing wrong with that either. That's great, but you do that same thing. You're doing it with a drive and a purpose. You're doing it with quality and character to improve whatever situation you are in, whether it's a CEO, a mom or a farmer. Your whole drive and job is to do things with integrity and quality or should be.
AJ Roberts (50:46):
Absolutely. Anything else you want to share today?
Sarah Jenkins (50:48):
I don't think so.
AJ Roberts (50:55):
Cool. So you mentioned earlier that you would love to connect with other female CEOs. Where is the best place for them to do that?
Sarah Jenkins (51:06):
Right now it's my LinkedIn. Honestly, Sarah Jenkins is on LinkedIn, CEO of Genesis Digital, where you can find me the fastest. I've got a couple websites starting because of the book, and they're just not going yet. They're not up.
AJ Roberts (51:14):
We'll put the links below when they are up and you guys can check that out. That's all for today. Thanks for joining us. We'll see you next time.
(51:21):
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