005 Mastering Relationship Marketing: Long-Term Networking Strategies for Business Success w/ Steve Black

Are you ready to take your business to new heights? Join us on the Paid To Create podcast as we unlock the secrets to mastering relationship marketing and long-term networking strategies for unrivaled business success.

In this captivating episode, our special guest, Steve Black, executive director of BNI West & South-Central Texas, shares his inspiring journey of growth and achievement. Discover how Steve harnessed the power of networking and building referral relationships to propel his business to unprecedented heights.

Dive deep into the art of effective networking and learn why it's not just about making quick sales, but rather cultivating meaningful connections that stand the test of time. Steve's invaluable insights will reshape your perspective on networking events and teach you the art of playing the long game for maximum results.

But that's not all! Join our conversation as we explore the benefits of creating a power team, harnessing the potential of online networking during challenging times, and the pivotal role of delivering exceptional customer experiences.

If you're ready to unlock the secrets to building quality relationships, generating referrals, and harnessing the power of word-of-mouth marketing, this episode is a must-listen for you. Tune in to Paid To Create now and get ready to elevate your business to extraordinary heights!

Transcript

Steve Black (00:00):
Networking is one of those things that we are not taught about. We don't go to school or go to business school, we don't go to college and learn about networking, learn about referrals. We learn about business, we learn about advertising. The biggest issue that most people don't realize about networking is it's a long-term strategy. With BNI, we call it Givers Gain. If I do as much as I can to help other people, it will eventually come back to help me.

Sarah Jenkins (00:26):
Welcome to the Paid to Create podcast, where we dig into the secret strategies of successful creators making a lucrative living. So sit back, relax, and enjoy the show.

AJ Roberts (00:35):
I just have to tell you about Kartra, the marketing platform that has seriously transformed my business. You know how running a business can be insanely time consuming, right? Well, Kartra has been a game changer for me. It's honestly like having an entire marketing team in my pocket. What I love most is that it automates all the tedious daily tasks for me, from marketing to sales, to even customer experience. I can't believe how much time and energy I've saved since I started using it.

(01:00):
Get this. With Kartra, I can create websites, funnels, courses, membership sites, email campaigns, calendars, surveys, you name it. It's made managing my business so much simpler and more affordable. Honestly, I can't recommend Kartra enough. If you're curious, head to paidtocreatepodcast.com\kartra to start your trial. Trust me, you won't regret it.

(01:22):
Hey, everyone. Welcome to the Paid to Create Podcast. I'm AJ Roberts. Alongside me as always is-

Sarah Jenkins (01:27):
Sarah Jenkins. Hi.

AJ Roberts (01:28):
Hey, and today's guest is Steve Black. Steve Black owns a custom window treatment company in Texas and he is also the Executive Director and owner of three BNI regions in Texas. Steve's superpower is referrals and networking. So we're going to get into that today. His story is quite unique. You notice he has a better British accent than me. I'm jealous he didn't lose it, but he moved to the states in 2000. I've actually been here longer. Steve, how's it going?

Steve Black (01:59):
It's going good. Thanks very much for having me.

AJ Roberts (02:02):
Good. Glad you're here. So you moved from England to Texas, you start a window treatment company, and then you end up in BNI. Walk us through that experience.

Steve Black (02:14):
Yeah. I want to back it up just a few seconds. I came to Texas. Why did I come to Texas? I'm probably one of your first internet dating relationships. Met my wife online in 1996. I don't know if computers were around too much back then, but yes, and we're still going strong, which is really cool. So yes, move forward, let's get on with talking about business.

(02:37):
BNI was one of those, it was just luck. I did custom window treatments. I was starting to build my network. I'd only been in the country, what, four or five years at the time, so I didn't know a huge amount of people. It's like being five years old and moving to a new school, haven't got a clue who you're going to meet.

(02:56):
Then a connection I had who was an interior designer invited me to a BNI meeting. She was somebody that I'd connected with, started to do a little bit of referrals with, if you like, before I even knew about networking referrals. I attended the meeting and said, "Yup. This is something I want to do." So they did the presentation, did the meeting, and I said, "You know what? I want to sign up for this."

(03:18):
I signed up for two years and my first three months, not a single referral. You know what it's like? You buy something, you buy a course, you buy something, and you've got this buyer's remorse, "Is it going to work?" I was very fortunate. My first referral covered my investment for about 15 years.

AJ Roberts (03:36):
Oh, wow.

Steve Black (03:37):
From the first referral. "Oh, great. Let's give it another 15 years. Let's see how it goes." It just got better and better and better. The more I got into the networking, the more I got into the referrals, the better it became, and here I am now. There was a lot more steps along the way, but if it wasn't for that original invite from Anne, I would've still been selling window treatments back in Austin.

AJ Roberts (04:00):
I think what's interesting there is you mentioned it took about three months to get that first referral and then that first referral was a big one, but a lot of people will go to an event, whether it's BNI, whether it's a business networking event, and that their first experience isn't always the best, and whether that's because they don't know how to show up or whether that's because they're in an environment they're not used to. So what do you see having ... You gave it three months, but most people don't. So what mistakes do most people do when they first go to a networking event?

Steve Black (04:36):
Networking is one of those things that we're not taught about. We don't go to school or go to business school, we don't go to college and learn about networking, learn about referrals. We learn about business, we learn about advertising. The biggest issue that most people don't realize about networking is it's a long-term strategy. It's not a fix to fix a failing business. It's not a way to suddenly get lots of new clients. If you want to do that, you've got to pay money for advertising and have an offer, a special offer, whatever it is.

(05:08):
I was lucky that it only took three months. You got to look at the type of business as to how quickly it's going to happen. There's a story we tell as part of our training where you've got this financial advisor and you've got a florist. The two are going to have completely different experiences with referrals and how quickly they get them. You got to think about the risk involved with investing with somebody like a financial advisor and the risk of buying a bouquet of flowers for 100 bucks and it not working out.

(05:38):
If I refer my mother-in-law to go get some flowers from a florist and they end up being delivered dead, guess what? She's going to be very unhappy with me for very long time, but it's only 100 bucks. If I refer her to a financial advisor who loses her whole life savings, completely different experience. So it takes a lot longer depending on the type of profession you are. I can pretty much say if you're a florist at a new BNI chapter or networking, you'll start to get referrals fairly quickly because there is low risk, low information. Financial advisors, totally different game. Now with custom window treatments, they're not cheap. So three years was good for the amount of investment for me. It should have taken me a lot longer. I was just very fortunate to be in the right place at the right time.

(06:23):
Again, that comes down to networking. If you're networking in the wrong place, guess what? Your results are going to be terrible. It's going to take even longer. You're networking the right place, you meet the right people, you get the right connections. With BNI, we call it Givers Gain. If I do as much as I can to help other people, it will eventually come back to help me. Pay it forward, givers gain, doing for others without any expectation of something in return, you're going to end up with good results over the long term.

(06:52):
So if you're going to get into network and you want to learn to network, it's going to take you a long time. You may be one of the fortunate ones, the lucky ones that get it fairly quickly, but I would not expect a return straight away from networking. If that's what you need, find some other way to sell your goods, sell your services.

Sarah Jenkins (07:10):
Well, I almost think that's why networking might be a dirty word. We say, "Oh, we're going to go to a networking event," and then everybody you meet has an agenda of getting you to buy what they've got or getting your contact for some other reason, but you seem to play a longer term strategy, like you said, the give first, right?

Steve Black (07:26):
Yup.

Sarah Jenkins (07:27):
Which is good, but I think a lot of people miss that part of the networking piece, where they go expecting-

Steve Black (07:31):
Absolutely.

Sarah Jenkins (07:32):
... some return on that relationship right away and that you're not selling flowers, you're selling something that's a little bit deeper, a little bit more of longer term investments. It's like what advice would you give to someone that's going to network that doesn't know how to play that long strategy?

Steve Black (07:47):
So let me ask you guys a question. Whenever you go to a networking event or a conference or a seminar, do you actually go there to buy something?

Sarah Jenkins (07:55):
No.

AJ Roberts (07:56):
No.

Sarah Jenkins (07:57):
Right. Well, if you are not going to buy anything, why do you think everybody else is, right? If you think about networking, Dr. Ivan Misner, he's the founder of BNI. He's given a great quote about this. It's network, it's not net sit, net eat, and it's work, but if you go expecting people to buy and yet you're not willing to buy yourself, it is just like this complete disconnect. You're not going to be able to go in there and sell if nobody is going there to buy.

(08:28):
Now, you go to a trade show, you're expecting freebies, right? You're expecting gifts, you're expecting go around the table, fill a bagful of goodies, go home and do whatever you need to do, give it to the kids, whatever you've got. You go to a store to buy something, but you go to network to build relationships. You can't build a relationship by just meeting one person once and hope it's going to work out. It's like dating, right? Silly question. Are either of you two married?

AJ Roberts (08:57):
Yeah, both of us.

Steve Black (08:59):
How long have you been married? Let's ask the question. I don't mean to each other. Let's go.

Sarah Jenkins (09:03):
That's a terrible question for me. Which time do you mean? The first, the second or the third?

Steve Black (09:08):
I'm on two. I'm on two. We'll go for the ... Actually, let's back up earlier. Instead of asking how long you've been married, how long did you date before you got married?

Sarah Jenkins (09:17):
Okay. For me, well, it's averaged about nine months.

AJ Roberts (09:22):
Sarah makes decisions quicker, but for me, it's a few years, typically, but I've been with my wife for eight years now.

Steve Black (09:31):
Congratulations. So think about it. This is my second. We've been together for 22 years now.

Sarah Jenkins (09:37):
Congratulations.

Steve Black (09:38):
Yes, thank you, but I tell you what, I didn't suddenly meet her once and say, "Let's get married."

AJ Roberts (09:43):
Right.

Steve Black (09:45):
Right? Well, it's the same with networking. You're not going to go to a networking event and say, "Hey, great to meet you. Buy this $10,000," whatever it is you're selling. Networking, we'll go back, it takes time, and you're building a relationship, you're not building a net. You're actually going there to get to know people. You get in there to build a relationship, and every time you attend that event or another event and you meet the same person, your relationship is getting stronger. So if you're going to a networking event once a month, you've only seen somebody 12 times in a year. How long does it take to actually build that relationship?

Sarah Jenkins (10:20):
Oh, that's so funny. Our friend, Grant, will always say, "You don't ask the first person you dance with to marry. You dance with many people at prom," or whatever-

Steve Black (10:28):
Well, I guess it depends on how rich they are or how good they look, right?

Sarah Jenkins (10:31):
What if I have none of those things?

AJ Roberts (10:35):
I think that concept transcends to everything. When you look online and you look at ... Again, you mentioned saying that's key. It depends on what you're selling, the price of it, and the necessity. If you're selling food or something, you're a vendor of something that someone uses on a regular basis or they have many occasions like flowers, there's birthdays and there's women's days and Valentine's Day, and everything, there's all these event, but like you said, a window treatment or a new roof or a plumber, there's only going to be so many times that that is actually a necessity, right?

(11:12):
If you're the top of their mind, you're going to make the sale. Online, it's the same thing. If you just send one email out and say, "Hey, buy my stuff," not many people are going to build it, but if they've been following you and listening to you and they've seen you on stage ... My best customers have always come from people I've met at events, they've seen me speak, they've followed me for years, and then all of a sudden they'll join a coaching program or a mastermind because the value of the investment, it costs them so much more, but it's one of those big decisions.

(11:44):
So whether it's offline or online, I think this idea of relationship marketing is really where we are as a society right now, where it's more than ever you might not be friends with somebody in the sense that they're coming over to your house and you're breaking bread, but are they having conversations with you on a regular basis? Are you communicating, educating, teaching them on a regular basis?

(12:10):
I think that's what you're hinting at here is when you go to these events, what you're looking to is start ... Your first thing should be, "Okay. Who in this room should I begin to build relationships with?" So if I'm going to one of these events, who is the right people for people to build relationships with because there's obviously a lot of people in attendance and sometimes you're wondering, "Who should I connect with? How do I do that?"

Sarah Jenkins (12:39):
It's scary.

AJ Roberts (12:40):
Yeah, it's scary to have a conversation like, "What if I have the wrong conversation or say the wrong thing to the wrong person?"

Sarah Jenkins (12:45):
Every time.

Steve Black (12:46):
Oh, yeah, and it happens. I mean, come on now. I think there's a lot of things that we can do, but you can guarantee that at least once we're going to put a foot in it. We're going to make a mistake when we're actually talking to somebody, say the wrong thing. I've done it plenty of times. I think I'm very fortunate with the English accent. You probably found this at the beginning, AJ. It's like they forgive you for nearly anything because they think you've got a cute accent.

Sarah Jenkins (13:10):
Well, statistically-

Steve Black (13:11):
You can get away with stuff.

Sarah Jenkins (13:13):
... the British accent is the most trusting accent.

Steve Black (13:16):
It's an accent. There was a couple of friends of my wife, she's obviously from here, but we met, we got to know them, the kids are in school together, all this kind of stuff. To me, it's just mind over matter. I said, "Yeah, it's mind over matter. Absolutely. I don't mind. You don't matter."

Sarah Jenkins (13:36):
That's amazing.

Steve Black (13:38):
I know, and they took it so well.

Sarah Jenkins (13:42):
I'm going to come back to that.

Steve Black (13:42):
They took it so well and I'm thinking, "Okay. I've got to be careful how many times I use that and who I use it with," because you will have somebody that'll take it the wrong way.

Sarah Jenkins (13:53):
I respect it. I like it. I might need some custom windows.

Steve Black (13:56):
We go back to the relationship marketing. Now, you're talking with the online. I want to explain how I manage to find Kartra and how I managed to get online. As most of you know, there was a little bit of a pandemic back in March of 2020 where the whole world shut down. BNI is an in-person networking event.

Sarah Jenkins (14:17):
Oh, right, yeah.

Steve Black (14:19):
It's in-person networking meetings. What happened between December when it was in other countries before it came to the US, our CEO, Graham Weihmiller, actually managed to get 10,000 Zoom accounts, and we moved every single one of our BNI chapters online in the middle of March across the world. Now, we've got nearly 300,000 members, and at that time just under 10,000 chapters. They suddenly went to networking online on Zoom meetings. Yes. That's why I use Zoom. We mentioned that in the beginning before we started.

Sarah Jenkins (14:51):
So you self-funded Zoom. I see.

Steve Black (14:56):
Yeah, pretty much. If I'd have known what I'd have known when it happened, I would've bought stock before. We got a week's notice and then suddenly got all these accounts. So we were in a position where we managed to transition. Now, it was a struggle for a lot of people doing online versus in-person. I personally like it because it's easier to switch on a computer in the morning than it is to drive 30 minutes, go to a networking event, shower, shave, all the fun stuff, but with all that changed, we had to find a new way to actually engage because screen-to-screen videos, it doesn't feel the same as in-person networking, and it's what you're used to.

(15:37):
So when we go to that relationship marketing, it doesn't matter whether you're selling courses online or you're you selling products online, you've got a in-person store. You need to know that the person that's going to buy from you is the person you want. It's your ideal customer. It's your ideal person to buy from you. Networking is not about your ideal customers.

(16:00):
Now, a lot of people, "In this networking, I want to find new customers." No, networking should be about your ideal referral sources like your JV partner in the digital world.

AJ Roberts (16:10):
Right, so our affiliates, those-

Steve Black (16:13):
Yeah, your affiliates, exactly.

AJ Roberts (16:14):
Sometimes those affiliates, for example, one of our top affiliates is a expert at paid traffic. So he's just driving traffic to our assets. He doesn't really build his own assets. So the actual product, although he's tested it and he does use it, he doesn't use it till its full capacity that one of our top customers would. What he's doing though is saying he's driving traffic the right people to us, and that is the relationship.

(16:45):
So ultimately, what you're saying is is when you're attending a networking event, what you're looking for is a person that is either connected or has their own network of people that would be the ideal customers. So you're actually looking to build a relationship with the gatekeeper, so to speak, of a community that you are trying to enter.

Steve Black (17:08):
Absolutely.

AJ Roberts (17:09):
Well, what's so funny is you said you're in Texas and you do custom window treatments, and I have a very custom home so I was like, "Oh, shit. I may need that," and then I thought even further, I was like, "My sister-in-law's dad does custom homes in Texas. I should connect you two." So that networking goes further.

Steve Black (17:23):
Well, I would actually back you over here. So I didn't correct you at the beginning. I actually sold the custom window treatment business to do BNI full-time.

AJ Roberts (17:29):
Oh, okay.

Steve Black (17:32):
So I literally network for a living, which is even more fun. To be honest, custom window treatments I fell into. I was very fortunate that I did, but I'm colorblind, so I'm not really good at it.

Sarah Jenkins (17:43):
Well, but that's cool because you have this thing and now you see the networking that you've done even with me. I'm already thinking about ways I could connect you in my own circles if I have a value in your product, but then if you're doing now BNI, your number one source of income is networking, what does that look like?

Steve Black (18:02):
So the number one source of income for me is a BNI membership. I currently have just under 300 members in a part of Texas. It's a franchise. There's 186 regions in the US. There's 13 regions in Texas. I own three of them. I've got just under 300 members in 13 BNI chapters that meet each week. What they do is they get to know each other. We teach them how to ask for referrals, what total referrals to ask for. The program is attend a weekly meeting, talk about your business, and the ideal referral for you, and the other people in the room will, like you did with custom window treatments and custom home builder, identify people that will be a good fit to refer me. Sometimes it's customers, sometimes it's the custom home builder that could send me multiple customers. That's BNI.

(18:50):
The problem we get with BNI, and this isn't a bad thing, you end up with a chapter of 30, 40, 50 members and not all of them can refer to each other. It's very unlikely that somebody that's a custom home builder would be able to refer to a life coach because they're not in the same industry. However, you put a realtor, a mortgage broker, a home inspector, a custom home builder, an insurance agent in the same room to each other, they end up referring to each other on a regular basis. What you've got with the BNI chapter is multiple pods within the chapter that can refer to them. We call them power teams.

(19:29):
So you have the real estate power team where they can refer to each other. You have the business to business power team, they can refer to each other. So having a larger team does help you because, yes, you'll get occasional referrals from those they are connected to because they know people that are coming across those problems or opportunities, but most of your referrals will actually come from your contact sphere, your sphere of professions that can actually send you business.

Sarah Jenkins (19:52):
Well, you said it's net work.

Steve Black (19:55):
Our largest chapter in the US has actually got over 140 members in. That's in South Carolina. Unfortunately not mine, wish it was, but maybe that'll happen to me one day.

Sarah Jenkins (20:04):
You'll get there.

AJ Roberts (20:06):
As I'm listening to this, I'm thinking, "Okay," because if I have an offline business locally, that makes a lot of sense. You find a group of people that are complimentary to you, build a net, whether it's joining a group or building your own little power team, it's great, but that can easily ... When we look at the Kartra agencies that we have, some people are email specialists, some people are Facebook advertising specialists. If they build a power team now ... Because when you get a customer, they're going to need ads, they're going to need emails, they're going to need SEO, they're going to need all these different things, and sometimes, especially for a lot of creators, it becomes overwhelming to have to build all of that out within your own business because it starts to go outside your area of expertise.

(20:56):
Now, there is some people who can do it, but in general, a lot of people want to stay in their lane and just do the thing that they started out with, and they do it very, very well, and they're one of the best at it. This gives them a way to get lead flow from people who are the ideal client, but also give lead flow. I think that's the important thing is in all of this, you have to be a champion referrer yourself.

(21:23):
So we go back to what's the best thing you do when you first show up. Well, the best thing you could do is already have an audience of your own, a customer base of your own that you have to share with the right people. That's going to be your most valuable asset. We have relied on affiliates now for over a decade, no matter what industry we've been in, what product we're selling, whether it's software, whether it's information marketing. Affiliates have been one of our biggest sources of lead and customer acquisition. Without them, we wouldn't be able to do things at the magnitude and the level we do, and a lot of that comes from having a good relationship with them, always delivering on promise and working with them. Then back before software, we do a lot of affiliate promotions for other people as well.

(22:21):
So I think that that's really, really ... I love the idea of giving first. That's what I've always done in my career when I've met people is always like, "Well, how can I help you?" It's how Sarah and I met, actually. They were having an issue with something. I was like, "Oh, I could help with that. I can fix that for you."

Sarah Jenkins (22:37):
I had an issue with tech, and I asked the number one lifter of weights for help in tech. I was like, "This conversation is backwards, but that's fine because he had the answer."

Steve Black (22:48):
Well, at least he knows how to pull his weight.

AJ Roberts (22:49):
Yeah, exactly, but that started a relationship now that spans-

Sarah Jenkins (22:53):
15 years.

AJ Roberts (22:54):
... over 15 years, all from me being like, "Oh, that's ..." To me, it was something I had figured out not through desire, but through necessity and, "Oh, yeah, I know what your problem is. Let me take care of that for you." Well, the reciprocity that built ... Then I said, "Well, how can we help you?" So as I'm listening to the idea of a power team, that is a concept I think the listeners really should grab onto and look around and say, "Well, who is my power team?" and determine based on what business you have who ... You could probably map out the roles or the other services that should be what you are referring to, and then you just go look for those people. You go to your audience.

Steve Black (23:42):
There's a trick to the whole thing. You think about all the professions that could refer. We know that a graphic designer and a web designer and SEO and digital marketing, they can refer to each other very easily. The problem is with whatever we do, not everybody in Kartra is in that realm. I'd say a lot of your customer base are coaches, life coaches, business coaches, all these different professions, and they're saying, "Well, who do I know that could be that person that could refer me more clients?" So the one question you need to ask yourself is, well, it's two questions or two-part question, "Who is my ideal customer?"

(24:20):
I think in any business, I don't care what business you are in, everybody has a perfect customer that they would give up everything else to get. They've got one person. Now, if we charge the same amount to every single customer, they're still one person because they're the one you enjoy working with the most. So if it's not price, it's got to be the one you enjoy working with. Ideally, it's both, the one that pays you the most and you enjoy working with.

Sarah Jenkins (24:46):
Ideally, yes.

Steve Black (24:48):
You've got to identify the ideal customer. Once you've done that, you say to yourself, "Who else will help my ideal customer? What other profession has to help my ideal customer?" Our easy example, if you are going to buy a house and you're not rich, you need a mortgage. So you know that if a realtor is somebody that I need to work with, I need to know mortgage brokers to introduce me to realtors. That's the easiest way to do it. So who's your ideal customer and who do they work with apart from you, and that's who you need to build that relationship with. That's who you need. You can start with one. See how it works. Build that relationship. Remember, it's not a quick fix. It's going to take time to get there, and you may have already ... The person you're trying to connect with may have already got somebody in that field, so not willing to build a relationship to pass referrals to you. That's okay. Not wasting time, it's practice.

(25:42):
Ideal customer, who else works with the ideal customer? You will find that if you can gather eight to 10 people that also work with your ideal customer, you'll create that team where you can actually refer to it. Now, we do this in BNI. Obviously, I'd like to say, "Hey, BNI is going to be all end all." To me it is because it's worked so well for me in my business. The cool thing about BNI now is all my chapters are back in person, but we can build online chapters.

(26:09):
So if I have somebody in Amarillo that wants to network with somebody in Lubbock, I can actually connect the two in a BNI chapter and we can help them pass referrals. You know a digital marketing especially, it is open to working with anybody anywhere in the world. With BNI, you get access to 300,000 members.

Sarah Jenkins (26:26):
God, Lubbock. Come on, man.

Steve Black (26:31):
Yeah, I know, Lubbock. Sorry.

Sarah Jenkins (26:31):
No, that's great. So you're not limited by your demographic of space like who can get to the meeting. You're not limited by that anymore. I do think networking is-

Steve Black (26:38):
I could look online to my database and I can find a BNI member in a profession that I want to connect with and start building a relationship with them no matter where they are in the world. I've actually given referrals to BNI members in the UK. Obviously, I know a few people back there.

AJ Roberts (26:53):
Well, that's the thing. People move. People have friends that they say, "Hey, does ..." I've been in groups where someone's like, "Hey, I'm trying to buy a car. I live here. Does anybody know a loan officer?" and there's a connection there. So I've seen the power of virtual referrals. How will you use it ... Looking at, you mentioned using Kartra earlier. BNI's mostly offline. Obviously, COVID, you guys went online, but you're now back in person. How do you tie all that in now together? How's it all coming together?

Steve Black (27:32):
BNI is an awesome system to generate referrals. What I had with COVID was me not being able to network anymore because everything closed down. So how I built my business was going to Chamber of Commerce mixers, going to different networking events.

Sarah Jenkins (27:46):
Brilliant.

Steve Black (27:47):
I networked to find new members for my networking groups. The problem was that stopped. So I said, "I need to find a way to find new customers that didn't involve attending in-person networking event." What that meant is I needed to look at creating landing pages, Facebook ads, all the fun stuff that's online that I didn't have a clue to do before now because I had to find it and create a whole new way. I literally have mission control here now with three webcams, a microphone, three screens. I literally do everything from here, networking and otherwise. What I've managed to do is build networks online that I never even dreamt of before like you guys there at Kartra.

(28:34):
I've been with Kartra for a year and a half now, I think it is. So pretty much, I found Kartra about six months after the pandemic started and I've just been learning and learning and building pages and opt-in pages, lead magnets to give away to try and find people that are also spending a lot more time online to actually generate leads for my business. I now use it to actually market, and when I say market, it's the wrong word, communicate with my members as well because I can actually do a lot more for my members, and I've created an online membership area where they can learn more about networking. So Kartra was a way for me to get online that I haven't even dreamt of before.

Sarah Jenkins (29:15):
So that's a really great, great segue to the next question that I actually had for you. Whether it was Kartra or another business that is on the internet, what are you using Kartra for? How do you get that online business for the networking in person stuff? I'm curious.

Steve Black (29:39):
I'm creating, basically, a few videos, a few landing pages. I'm doing some paid marketing. It's paid for itself, so I'm not having a bad experience with it, but I found that I enjoy Kartra so much that I'm actually building pages for people. So I've got a sideline going now where I'm actually building funnels and pages and recording videos and got another network that I've connected with, which I'll introduce you guys, but it's just that owns tools for motivation, which is a big provider of PLR. So we network every couple of weeks now and I'm starting to build funnels for their PLR.

Sarah Jenkins (30:19):
That's so cool. So you have another side business.

Steve Black (30:22):
Yes. Unfortunately, I give myself a lot of extra work to do, but I've actually got the time to do it, and this is the reason why. When I was networking in person, I used to drive around 4,000 to 5,000 miles a month networking all over West Texas. My region is 110,000 square miles.

Sarah Jenkins (30:38):
Big.

Steve Black (30:39):
So I was on the road one week out of four pretty much. So I've actually got an extra 70 hours, 80 hours a month where I'm not driving anymore because I never went back to that driving and in-person networking all over the state. I've got people that do that for me now. So I've got the time to do extra fun stuff. So yes, I'm now building funnels.

AJ Roberts (31:00):
I like what you said. However long a meeting is, let's say it's a couple hours once a month, well, without the email, without the ability to just send a virtual video or something like that, you are limited to how much information and content you can provide. What it sounds like to me is you're able to expand their membership and use the online assets to create a bigger experience that goes beyond the meeting. Now, still, obviously for local businesses, meeting in-person, building those connections, to me, nothing beats in-person connection, but what beats in-person connection is in-person connection merged with online connection.

(31:43):
I say this to people, I still work with a lot of fitness businesses and different gyms and what I tell them is, "Okay. Your member comes. How many times a week do they work out on average?" Most people it's two to three times a week. So they're in your gym for maybe six hours tops a week. There's 24 hours in a day. How many hours can you infiltrate their life because the relationship you build with them is going to only get deeper? The more you communicate with them, the more you provide them. They're going to cook their meals at home, they're going to stretch at home, they're going to do all these different things. How do you start to merge that?

(32:15):
I think it sounds like that's what you've figured out. Then from that, it spurred other people being like, "Hey, could you do this for me?" People in your network are like, "Hey, I really like what you're doing. Could you help me?" because you have the time you've been doing that.

Steve Black (32:28):
That's what networking is. Going back to your fitness example, even if they went every single day, they still wouldn't spend eight to 10 hours a day there unless they actually work there. So the idea is how do you ... Networking is about giving and adding value. Doesn't matter what business you're in, but fitness is a great example. How do you add value to your members that are the regulars that keep coming back? You don't worry about people like me. I'm sorry. From here down, I look great. From here up, I look great, but below I'm a little bit ... I've got the muscles in the wrong places. Let's fit it that way. I've actually got a keg, not a six pack. It's just one of those things I've got.

(33:05):
The idea is if I can actually take a fitness gym, and I could actually network with the owner and I can, one, create a way to help them find new clients through BNI, but then also teach them how to engage with their customers by adding value. Again, it comes back to developing a referral program if you like or an affiliate program, however you want to do it. Networking is half of the battle regarding referrals. The other half is word of mouth marketing. It's talking about it, and that's where your affiliates come in, but it's the same with the gym.

(33:41):
You want your customers having such a great experience that they talk to everybody else they know about it, and even hold their hand and help them and say, "Yeah, I'm not just going to invite you to the gym, I'm going to go with you to the gym for the first two tries and I'm going to teach you some of the exercises that's going to help you get fitter, not have to pay for a special coach to do that." You get your customers on board to be excited about helping new customers. What you've done is created an experience and you've actually raised and elevated their experience so they're actually more beholden to you, if you like, versus saying, "Oh, I can try any gym." You want them to have a reason to be there.

AJ Roberts (34:18):
Right, and they're going to-

Steve Black (34:19):
It's the same to every business.

AJ Roberts (34:20):
Also, when you recommend something, they're going to trust you and treat it differently because they're going to value that opinion better because you are such an influence within their life. I think that then makes ... Now, you're able to refer someone. If I was a gym owner, I could refer a food prep company. If I'm actually communicating with my customers on a regular basis, they're more likely to try the food prep company because they have a better relationship with me. So now, you're going to be a better referral partner for your power team than you would if you are just, "Oh, hi, Sally," when she walks in the gym and that's the only time you say hello.

Steve Black (34:55):
Yeah, no, absolutely. You've heard this phrase, I'm sure, know, like, and trust. One, I've got to know you exist. I can't give you a referral or help you if I know nothing about you. I've got to like you because if I really don't like you, I really don't want to help you. It's just human nature. Luckily, we're getting to know each other. This is the first time we've talked in person, but you get to that like stage and you like somebody, you're going to be able to give them referrals, but you really got to trust them to give them people you know.

(35:30):
If I meet somebody on the street that says, "Do you know a good gym?" I'm going to recommend your gym, but if I'm going to recommend a friend or a family member or somebody I know well, I'm going to have to trust you before I can do that. So we've got to have all three parts of the puzzle. A lot of people think customer service does it. Customer service does not help you get referrals.

AJ Roberts (35:50):
Experience, experience does.

Steve Black (35:53):
Experience helps you get referrals. Customer service, all that does is if you get it right is stop people going somewhere else. It could be the best food in a restaurant, but if you get bad customer service, you don't want to go back there no matter how good the food is.

AJ Roberts (36:06):
Exactly.

Steve Black (36:06):
So you need good customer service to keep the customer. You don't need good customer service to get the customer.

AJ Roberts (36:13):
Fantastic point.

Sarah Jenkins (36:16):
Someone else saying you are great is much more powerful than your staff saying you're great or you saying you're great. Of course, you think you're great. Of course, your staff thinks you're great.

Steve Black (36:23):
I think Facebook calls these recommendations. They did it for a reason. Banks advertise that most of our customers come from referrals. People know how powerful that is. It's like, "Well, if that's a case, why do you still advertise?" but we can cover that on another topic. It's know, like, and trust, three key parts to all of it. I don't know how many members you've got there with Kartra, but you've got over 18,000 people in your Facebook group. A lot of those are now developing friendships over the years. Some of them are just lurkers, just watching from the distance, but a lot of them are friends and getting connected.

(37:00):
Same as I'm making friends with Shannon and Valerie and a few of the others in your team now. I'm getting to know them, we're building relationships. Again, know, like, and trust. Nobody trusts me completely yet that's in Kartra, but they're getting to know me. They're hopefully getting to like me aside from the accent.

Sarah Jenkins (37:18):
We forgive that.

Steve Black (37:18):
Eventually, they will get to trust me based on the experience they have with me adding value and giving to their relationship.

AJ Roberts (37:25):
Absolutely. It's a much more long-term sustainable model too because, like you say, advertising is up and down and I think advertising is adding the gasoline on the fire, but if you are constantly just having to spend money to acquire new customers, the problem with that is that you run into competition, you run into hurdles, you run into platforms, increasing ad costs. So the reality is is that that word of mouth marketing, which comes from relationship marketing can be such a huge part of your business that it takes the pressure off that paid media. Paid media can scale, paid media can grow, but at the end of the day, if you don't have customers who are advocates, you don't have customers who will go and shout from the rooftops, it doesn't matter how many people you bring it in the front end, that's their experience too.

(38:23):
So you'll never going to get that hockey stick growth that everybody looks for, everybody hopes that they have. In times where like Google, when they did their slap on advertisers, if that's your only source of leads, well, all of a sudden you got to go figure out a new platform and learn a new platform. So you have to hedge your bets, and as you start to scale, these things become more important.

(38:47):
I think, especially for someone who is newer to business or is newer to networking, the reason it's so powerful is that nobody can take away your network. Google can shut your ads off. Facebook can shut your ads off. Platforms like Twitter got bought out. He'd said, "No, we're not running ads anymore. We're changing the model here." So if you have just a source that suddenly is gone, it's a dangerous thing to just have one way to get new customers.

Sarah Jenkins (39:17):
I think it's leads first relationships. It's why we started the podcast too. We wanted to show our customers that we're going to give back content, we're going to give you ways to help in your business, whether you buy Kartra or not. It's aside from that, but we're going to tell you what we think is best for your company. We're going to interview the best people we can find to help you with your business, whether you go with us or not. Then that's more relationship than a lead. It's a different mindset.

Steve Black (39:42):
I think the mindset really needs to be lead as it fall out of wood. Any of you that want leads for your business is doing it all wrong. You actually want prospects, ideal customers that are going to buy from you, and it doesn't matter whether it's through relationship marketing or advertising. You want to have the right person come to you because if all you're doing is getting leads, you're just filling up your email list with people that are never going to buy from you. I don't know what the conversion rate is for people getting through to try Kartra for a couple of weeks and then staying on after the couple of weeks. I know what my conversion rate is and I know what my retention rate is for my first year versus long-term. I know that if a member renews after their first year, on average they stay with me for three years.

Sarah Jenkins (40:24):
That's great.

Steve Black (40:26):
Again, extra couple of years out of them, right? If they don't renew in the first year, I've lost them for good. They very rarely come back. If I get them for five years, I can pretty much guarantee you, unless they change jobs or relocate, I'm going to keep them. I actually have a member in Odessa that's been with me for 20 years-

AJ Roberts (40:41):
Wow.

Sarah Jenkins (40:42):
Awesome.

Steve Black (40:42):
... in the same BNI chapter. I look at everything we do. There's got to be about the people we know. Forget what's going on in the world. If you only have a local business, you need to get to know every local business around you, and you need to get to know them well because even if you compete with them, there's an opportunity because they may not have what that person wants. They can send them down to the road to you. You'll also find your contacts there because you'll find the certain areas of town where the trades stick together or the business-to-business stick together or whatever it is. Build your network locally if you haven't got time to do it online or go out a little bit further.

(41:27):
Network online, and I don't mean follow somebody on Facebook and just watch them post information. Actually engage and put comments on the posts, have conversations with people. That's how we get to build relationships. So whatever business you've got, find people that you want to get to know that you like, that you'll know you'll trust because you'll like them and that can help you build your network because you just never know who they might know.

Sarah Jenkins (41:55):
Honestly, people like you and what you're saying and what you're doing, and then you're commenting and liking on stuff that you're promoting. That generally serves because you like that person for a reason and that they like you for a reason, so it's the same atmosphere. So you're not bringing them to somewhere they're uncomfortable, you're bringing them somewhere they feel great.

Steve Black (42:11):
Absolutely. I'll be honest, I comment on purpose. I don't comment because I like something. It depends on who it is in my network. I'm actually adding value to the relationship because even if that post wasn't about something I'm interested in, by commenting on the post, I'm adding value to our relationship. I'm giving to our relationship because they get the extra exposure. So even if it's not relevant to me, it might sound like it's a little bit underhand, it's not. I'm helping a person I know, like, and trust. There's nothing bad about that.

AJ Roberts (42:41):
I think I picked up something there. You said build your local network, but I think that mindset goes online too. There's a thing called Dunbar's number and that's essentially that you can only have 150 meaningful relationships. So if you're online, that's what you have to look at too. Think local online. You might be all over the world, but you're only going to build 150 deep relationships. So pick those wisely and actually spend time on those. You might have 5,000, 10,000, 100,000 followers. That's one thing, and that's the difference. Instagram, you have followers, TikTok, you have followers, YouTube, you have subscribers, Facebook, you have friends. So on these platforms, you have to really understand what a relationship is and a relationship is spending time together.

(43:36):
So in person, you're going to have conversations. Well, online, are you having conversations? You have to start to look at that. Everything you've shared today around building referrals is only going to work if you're committed to building those relationships, if you're committed to giving first before getting, if you're committed to being a good referral partner for others. If you do that, and if you have 50, 100, 150 deep relationships that those people will refer to you, you mentioned earlier, eight or 10 people is all that most people need.

(44:07):
So when you start looking at that, you might say, "Okay, I'm going to spend time on 150, but I only need 10% of these people to actually reciprocate, to start to build those relationships. So I'm going to put out that work, that effort," like you said, net work, "I'm going to put in the work and the effort and that's going to come back and I'm going to bear my fruit. I'm going to plant the seed today, and then in six, eight, 12, maybe a couple of years, that is going to come to harvest." I've seen people spend a decade doing this and where they were 10 years ago to where they are today, people go, "Well, how did you do that?" Well, they showed up every day. They built relationships and they put in the work.

Steve Black (44:44):
Absolutely. I use Dunbar's number in my training all the time. To elaborate slightly, 150 is the number that you can effectively manage. We all like the idea of having lots of followers, lots of connections because it's an ego thing. I would love 18,000 people in my Facebook page. It's probably not going to happen, but I don't ... You look at the Facebook page and the comments, and even an 18,000 person Facebook page ends up with best 10, 20, 30 comments on a post. Those are people who are engaged, following, and helping. I can think of a few of those, and I'm sure you've got those on the list that you're going to talk to.

(45:27):
The Dunbar's number is a great way to actually pick a way to ... How do I phrase this? Make a list. It's like if you had a piece of paper, it had 150 spaces on it, you start by writing down 150 people that you already know that you want to keep in your relationship. There is nothing wrong with saying, "I never want to speak to that person again," even if they're a relative. It's okay. You don't necessarily do it, but you separate it out and say, "Well, I'd like to get them out, but I guess they've got to be on my list," but my Dunbar's 150.

Sarah Jenkins (45:59):
Whisper that to yourself.

Steve Black (46:02):
Exactly.

Sarah Jenkins (46:02):
There goes Aunt Patty.

Steve Black (46:05):
You got to look at that 150 or however many you wrote down and say, "What are my top five? Let's have coffee together. Let's have a lunch together." Just start with your top five that are the most important for you right now, and explain what you're doing. Teach them what you're doing because if they understand why you're doing it, they'll want to do the same thing. They may have a slightly different five, and they're slightly different five. You end up with five people with five different people each. You end up with a network of 25 people that are starting to get to know each other and build relationships, and it's just like that.

Sarah Jenkins (46:38):
That's great.

Steve Black (46:39):
Then when you've got your five, you can expand it.

AJ Roberts (46:41):
Yeah, that ripple effect, it's super powerful.

Sarah Jenkins (46:45):
I have 4,000 friends and I thought 150 was excessive. I was like, "I can't talk to that many people."

AJ Roberts (46:49):
You don't need to, and I think that's the point, and I think that's the real takeaway here is that it's about the depth of the relationship, not how many people-

Sarah Jenkins (46:59):
Quality over quantity.

AJ Roberts (47:02):
It's the same as the concept of a thousand true fans. If you have a thousand true fans, you can make all the money you need to live. I think that that's the point is that relationships, and especially in today's day and age, you have to go deeper on your relationships. Most people are very surface level. Most people are liking and whatever, but are they commenting? Are they engaging? Are they showing up? A lot of virtual companies have in-person events. Are you investing in yourself by going to the events? Are you investing in yourself by joining those higher groups so that you can build the deeper relationships with the people you want to build? I think that, like you said, if you're local, a thing like BNI is essential because you are creating an environment that facilitates this. So it takes a little bit of pressure off of you having to do it yourself.

(47:51):
For those that aren't necessarily a local business or they're more inclined to do it themselves, what we've shared today and what Steve shared, especially, that's the blueprint. You don't take this concept of, "Oh, I've got to build a million followers to be successful." Now, yes, if you have a million followers, you're probably going to be successful, but you're only going to be successful off of a tiny percentage of those people. I think that's the real key. You could have 10,000 followers with a hundred deep relationships, and you're going to probably make more money and be more profitable than someone who has a million followers, but has zero relationships with any of those.

Steve Black (48:31):
Which is really important when you've got a Kartra account because it's 12,500. You have to upgrade at the next level, seriously.

Sarah Jenkins (48:39):
You have to.

Steve Black (48:39):
No, just joking aside. If you think about your business, and it doesn't matter what business, think about affiliate marketing. Your podcast is Paid to ... Sorry. What was the name of the podcast again?

Sarah Jenkins (48:51):
Paid to Create.

AJ Roberts (48:51):
Paid to Create.

Steve Black (48:52):
Paid to Create. I thought I was going to say that. Cut this bit out the podcast, but the idea is if you are an online business, you want to market online, you're building your business online, you're using Kartra to build your platform, think about referrals as affiliates. Find the best five affiliates that you can build relationship with and make those affiliates feel special. Don't just say, "I need as many affiliates as possible," because you'll end up with 3,000 affiliates that might make a little bit of money here and there, and you'll get one sale from this one and one sale from the other one.

(49:27):
Look for affiliates, build relationships and network with your affiliates. Add value to those affiliates by either giving away exclusive, free stuff, whatever it is that you do that they can benefit from, and just find five really good ones. It doesn't matter the size of their list because if they have a good list, it's going to get your results.

Sarah Jenkins (49:47):
That's true.

Steve Black (49:47):
You find five, and those five tell their friends about you, guess what? You do the interview and you bring them into your circle and you grow your affiliates. You don't just suddenly get mass affiliates, you grow your affiliates. Built out your affiliates gradually by networking. It's an identical process. Without the relationships, you've just got people promoting your products and hoping they get a sale. They might even be promoting it to the wrong ideal customer, in which case an affiliate is useless to you.

Sarah Jenkins (50:15):
We've actually discovered that more and more as we go. We've had thousands of affiliates, but the ones that bring us the 10, 20 clients that they've walked themselves into Kartra, "Hey, you have to try this thing. You have to understand that this can help you grow your business," those clients stay forever, and so do those affiliates. So we're giving those affiliates, now that we've learned some of the system, our affiliates are getting more of our attention and our love because they're bringing that quality customer that could utilize our system and then maximize it for their benefit.

AJ Roberts (50:42):
It goes back to the whole quality over quantity, and it's-

Steve Black (50:46):
Absolutely. That's what I'm doing with the funnels. I'm building the funnels. I've partnered with a PLR company. Hopefully we're going to develop funnels for that PLR. I'm actually going to talk to their members. I'm not just going to market it out there in the big wide world and hope I sell a template now and again. I want to build a relationship and a network with their customers, which I've been doing for the last couple of years, about the same time as I got onto Kartra. So now, I've got these networks that I've actually put together, which creates a niche for my market-

Sarah Jenkins (51:15):
Very cool.

Steve Black (51:15):
... or niche, depending on whether you're from the US or from Europe. I'm just-

AJ Roberts (51:20):
Well, and the cool thing is, and as an example for you personally is that you never know where these things lead. You never know the person you meet, what that relationship's going to turn into. It may not be a direct referral, but it may be a business partner, it may be this. The concept of building that relationship and being open to the possibilities of what may transcend from that I think is really, really key. Going in with that mindset is going to avoid a lot of those awkward conversations. When someone says, "What do you do?" and you'll be like, "Well, I do this and this is how you can help me." People are interested in what is in it for them. They're interested for that long-term relationship. So I think there's a lot of takeaways today, and I appreciate you being here. Is there anything you wanted to share that we haven't covered?

Steve Black (52:09):
No. I'm just going to add one thing to this. I don't know which episode of the podcast this is going to be. I really appreciate being here and getting this opportunity, but it didn't happen overnight. I've been networking and getting to know people in Kartra for the last couple of years, and I've been invited on this podcast to talk in front of however many listeners, viewers we're going to have. That to me is my two-year investment in networking coming to fruition.

AJ Roberts (52:36):
I would say millions, but after this podcast, I'm going to say 150 valuable people. That's how many we're going to lead. We're going to add some scarcity in here.

Steve Black (52:51):
Cut off the subscription at 149, but no, I'm going to add one little thing. Go to a BNI chapter. It's normally free to attend. You might have to pay for lunch or breakfast, depending on the time of the meeting. Just go to a BNI meeting. Check it out, get to meet some people. If you like it, you'll get invited to apply to be a member. If it's not for you, that is absolutely fine as well, but you've got to get an attitude. Just go to bni.com. If you're not in my area, I'm sorry I can't help you, but if you're in my area, it's time we started networking and getting to know each other.

AJ Roberts (53:26):
Cool. Steve, how can people follow you directly if they want to do that?

Steve Black (53:31):
Easiest way to do that, I've actually set up a separate brand, which I'm doing my marketing and coaching from called letstalkreferrals.com. I've got a website out. It's on Kartra. I started a podcast about eight weeks ago, just doing 10 to 15-minute talks on different topics. So just go to the website. There's a place to subscribe. I'd be happy to network with you, get to know you, and build on a relationship.

AJ Roberts (53:55):
Awesome. Well, we appreciate you being here. Sarah's taking notes. I've taken notes. It's been a great episode. Thank you so much.

Steve Black (54:02):
Hey, appreciate your time. Thanks very much for having me.

Sarah Jenkins (54:03):
Thanks, Steve.

AJ Roberts (54:04):
Thanks everyone for listening to the Paid to Create Podcast. We'll see you on our next episode.

(54:08):
I just have to tell you about Kartra, the marketing platform that has seriously transformed my business. You know how running a business can be insanely time-consuming, right? Well, Kartra has been a game changer for me. It's honestly like having an entire marketing team in my pocket. What I love most is that it automates all the tedious daily tasks for me, from marketing to sales, to even customer experience. I can't believe how much time and energy I've saved since I started using it.

(54:34):
Get this. With Kartra, I can create websites, funnels, courses, membership sites, email campaigns, calendars, surveys, you name it. It's made managing my business so much simpler and more affordable. Honestly, I can't recommend Kartra enough. If you're curious, head to paidtocreatepodcast.com\kartra to start your trial. Trust me, you won't regret it.