004 Revolutionizing Personal Growth with NFTs and Web 3.0: The Power of Gamification and Coaching w/ Simon Lovell

Discover the untapped potential of NFTs, Web 3.0, and gamification in this thought-provoking podcast episode. Join us as we delve deep into the captivating world of personal growth, entrepreneurship, and the transformative power of non-fungible tokens. Our guest, Simon Lovell, shares his incredible journey from building a million-dollar fitness coaching business to embracing personal development and diving into the NFT space.

Explore the innovative concept of Dogliens, a project that merges Hollywood storytelling with personal growth, creating a unique and engaging experience for NFT enthusiasts. Learn about the challenges and possibilities of AI art in the creation of one-of-a-kind NFT artworks, while gaining insights into building and nurturing a healthy community within the NFT space.

Uncover the future of NFTs in various industries, from marketing strategies to the emergence of the Metaverse. Engage in discussions about the importance of customer retention, high integrity marketing, and the potential impact of gamification on personal transformation. Discover how NFTs can go beyond trading cards and become powerful tools for impactful training and coaching.

Whether you're new to the NFT world or a seasoned enthusiast, this episode will expand your horizons and inspire you to explore the transformative potential of NFTs, Web 3.0, and gamification. Don't miss out on this eye-opening conversation that blends entrepreneurship, technology, and personal growth. Tune in now and be part of the revolution in personal development with NFTs and Web 3.0.

Transcript

Simon Lovell (00:00:00):
So cultivating healthy community was something that was very important to me because I'd experienced unhealthy community. So really, a lot of the things that I've created, and the programs that I've created for entrepreneurs, it's because I've seen a problem and I've seen something that I don't like, and I'm like, "In the thing that I'm going to create, I want to cultivate healthy community." So that was the first part of it, was making sure that was in place.

Sarah Jenkins (00:00:28):
Welcome to the Paid to Create podcast, where we dig into the secret strategies of successful creators making a lucrative living. So sit back, relax, and enjoy the show.

AJ Roberts (00:00:37):
I just have to tell you about Kartra, the marketing platform that has seriously transformed my business. You know how running a business can be insanely time-consuming, right? Well, Kartra has been a game-changer for me. It's honestly like having an entire marketing team in my pocket. And what I love most is that it automates all the tedious daily tasks for me, from marketing to sales, to even customer experience. I can't believe how much time and energy I've saved since I started using it. And get this, with Kartra, I can create websites, funnels, courses, membership sites, email campaigns, calendars, surveys, you name it. It's made managing my business so much simpler and more affordable. Honestly, I can't recommend Kartra enough. If you're curious, head to paytocreatepodcast.com\Kartra to start your trial. Trust me, you won't regret it.

(00:01:24):
Hey, man, welcome to the show. Glad to have you.

Simon Lovell (00:01:26):
Good to be here.

AJ Roberts (00:01:28):
Cool, man. How's it being back in San Diego?

Simon Lovell (00:01:31):
Oh, dude, I don't like Florida. It's something about the humidity. Buddha, my dog, he pulls himself back to the house because it's so freaking hot. I think he's sweating, right? Even though dogs can not deal with that. But the hurricane, man, that just tipped it over the edge. But great to be back in San Diego. You are the reason why I'm here, let's not forget.

AJ Roberts (00:01:52):
I guess, yeah, that's true. We go way back. But yeah, you came back to beautiful rainy weather and now we got the Santa Ana winds.

Simon Lovell (00:02:01):
It's better than Florida, dude. And also better than England, right? We know that story.

AJ Roberts (00:02:06):
Yeah. Everyone in England and Florida who's listening is like, "What are you talking about? It's great here."

Simon Lovell (00:02:10):
Some people are surprised I've not been back to England since I came eight, nine years ago.

AJ Roberts (00:02:16):
I was just back there for three weeks and it rained the whole time. Everyone's so happy in their wellie boots and big jackets. So anyway, let's get into why you're here. I brought you on the show because you've had many transitions as an entrepreneur. When I first met you, you were basically selling a book, The Lunch Box Diet, and that transitioned into paleo stuff and then into fitness business coaching, and you built up a million-dollar business there. Then you decided to burn it all to the ground. And we'll get into that and kind of move into the personal development space. You had success there, but then you got into NFTs. And I remember when you first got into it because I was talking to you about it and I'm like, "Well, how often are you studying this stuff?" And you're like, "Oh, I spend six hours a day." And I was like, "I don't have time for this." And that's when I was like, "I'm never going to get into this stuff." So what got you into NFTs?

Simon Lovell (00:03:07):
Well, COVID happened, right? And I'll be honest with you, during that event of COVID, I was wanting fun like a lot of people. I got out a puppet. I did a puppet thing, and it was the playful me was just wanting to come out in more creativity. I've been in the coaching space for a long time having done Lunch Box Diet, yes, the paleo stuff, but more so, the fitness business stuff. And I wanted a change. It was just feeling funky to me with how everything was on Facebook and just the way that things were being marketed. And I got into crypto, or back into crypto, and then everyone started talking about NFTs. Gary Vaynerchuk, and you just see. So of course, it piques your curiosity. So I bought my first NFT, it was a Back to the Future NFT on a platform called VeVe.

(00:04:06):
And then I started to invest in more. I started to get involved in communities because one thing that happens is when you buy your first NFT, you don't understand that it's linked to something. You just see that it's art, right? "I see the picture." But then you realize that there's this whole other community which is mainly focused on platforms that I wasn't used to. I wasn't a fan of Twitter, and I was a massive Facebook junkie. I would say I was addicted to Facebook. I don't even use Facebook anymore. So I segued into Twitter, but then there's also this community of Discord like, "What's Discord?" I didn't know about it. And it's very chat-based. So you start to learn about this image is now tied to this community. And then I started to be part of communities. I started to understand that there's toxicity in these communities and there's this whole other environment that, honestly, I wasn't experiencing in this environment of Facebook.

(00:05:04):
Then I started to think about, "Well, maybe I'd like to do my own project," but nothing was clicking. I had these ideas, but you know what it's like when you got an idea, but it's not flowing. So I spent a year and a half as an investor in different NFT projects learning what's rarity, what's utility, how do you build a community? And then, actually, through one of those communities, I heard this thing about AI art and I didn't know anything about it. I just heard about it. I heard that you could go and type in these prompts and start to produce these images, and I thought it was cool. I was like, "Oh, that's nice. I appreciate different types of art." And for me, also, NFTs took me back to my childhood where you were collecting things, right? Garbage. What? Garbage.

AJ Roberts (00:05:55):
Garbage Can Kids or something?

Simon Lovell (00:05:58):
Yes, Garbage Patch Kids or something like that. Again, it took me back to the collecting days. And then, after I discovered AI, I literally walked past my dog, Buddha, who's a King Charles Cavalier for the dog owners. By the way, if it wasn't for you, I wouldn't have a dog because it was your dogs that actually opened my art to dogs. So a big reason for having Buddha is you. And I walked past Buddha and I was like, "Dog alien." That was it. It was this random thought. And I put dog alien into a program called Midjourney, which is one of these AI platforms, and it popped out this really funny image, and I laughed and it was just like, "Oh, this is cool." Then I'd been in a project which was created by Hollywood director, William Eubank. His film, Underwater, was very popular. The Signal, a new movie with Russell Crowe, Liam Hemsworth.

(00:06:58):
So I started to generate these connections, and with his project, it was very different because a lot of projects have just the art, but with his project, he tied in storytelling. So instead of just investing in this NFT and seeing this art, he was also building a backstory, so these little Scremlin characters. And it was like, "Oh, what is your Scremlin doing today? Oh, its hair caught on fire and it had to go to the hospital." So I started to realize the power of story. So then, because I wanted to do a project myself, I was like, "I can tie all this together." And a Forbes article came out and the title was Merging the Worlds of Hollywood Storytelling and Personal Growth, which is my project Dogliens. So what you have is a series of these different dog breeds, which are these aliens with all of these different wild characteristics. Some have got these goo bodies and some have got these aggressive faces, they're called the Growlers, and they're a bit more confident-looking.

(00:07:59):
And it started to open me up creatively. So for me, as a coach, as someone that was and still does executive coaching and works with entrepreneurs, this brought in a whole other element of creativity. And I was like, "Wow, I can do this really fun thing, which is building this story and doing these NFTs, which is putting me in flow, and I can also link it to my," it's called IRL, in real life, right? We're in IRL right now versus being on Twitter, "I can tie it to my IRL and Web2 work as a coach and bring these worlds together. And to me, that was very exciting. So then I went into the journey of learning how to build a project, getting a developer, and tying it all together. And it took time. It took a lot of effort, but what I can say from doing it is that it opened up a whole new world to me.

(00:08:56):
It also got me out of doing the things that I didn't want to do, which a lot of people are doing now and they're happy with it. But for me, I just wasn't liking what I was seeing on Instagram and Facebook of how people were marketing in that way. I wanted to do something different. I saw this as an opportunity. We launched Dogliens in October 2022, and it was received very well. We had early challenges with minting the project. Minting is the transfer from-

AJ Roberts (00:09:26):
The launch.

Simon Lovell (00:09:26):
Yeah, the launch, right? The mint launch. So we launched in October. Very quickly, we had a lot of whales coming in, big investors, shift up some of the language, big investors that came in that saw what I was doing. In fact, on day one, we had a Hollywood producer say that, "We really like what you're doing. There's a great possibility of this being on-screen." So that gave me a lot of confidence. But the big investors, what they were saying was, "I really love what you're doing in terms of the coaching." So what we do each week with Dogliens is yes, there's an NFT, so you buy the NFT, maybe right now it's a hundred bucks, maybe it's a thousand bucks. I have no idea based on when the podcast comes out, but you get-

AJ Roberts (00:10:12):
The fluctuation of ETH.

Simon Lovell (00:10:14):
Right. Exactly. It's always going up and down like a fricking yoyo. But you get your NFT and what happens is then you go into Discord and then you validate it, you get the approval that you have it, and then it basically unlocks a membership. It unlocks access to storytelling workshops where we've had an actor from The Hobbit come in and do workshops. Then it opens up coaching from me in a group session. So I'm used to doing that in a Facebook group, but now I'm doing it actually in a metaverse because we created a metaverse environment from it. So there's a lot. It's very involved.

AJ Roberts (00:10:57):
What's really interesting is that when you got into NFTs, my thought process on what an NFT was, was it was essentially rich art where rich people who needed to store money in an asset that couldn't be taxed, that's what they would do. So I saw it as for an artist who was well-known or successful, they could create digital art and a rich person would buy it because they're essentially storing money. And then what you would essentially do is in the Metaverse, you would have your home or whatever it is, and it would just be bragging rights. When someone comes over, in the metaverse, like, "Look at my fancy art that I've purchased." And of course, there'd be knockoffs, but only one person has the original Picasso. And that's how I saw it. And it wasn't until Gary V's project, VeeFriends, that I saw he tied his NFTs to three years' worth of tickets to his event.

(00:11:52):
And I was like, "Oh, that's really, really smart." We had very little conversation on what the world of NFTs look like, right? In my head, I was like, "At some point, I'll just download what you have from you. I'll just get you to spill the beans. And if it's worthy, I'll jump in." But I saw you spending money, I saw you doing stuff, I saw you with your puppetpreneurs. You were going to have an NFT project, and then you shut it all down. So for that year and a half, I was like, "What's going on?" It wasn't until you started talking about the storytelling piece and the community that I started to get intrigued. And the reason I got intrigued is having a two and four-year-old, what I've noticed is that cartoons are nowadays designed to sell product. We're very careful about screen time and what the kids watch because what we've realized, and being in the marketing and advert advertising world myself, and you the same, you notice these things way more than the regular Joe, right?

(00:12:59):
Everything you touch and watch could be inspiration for an idea or a project. So I'm watching these cartoons and I'm going, "This is designed so that whenever a kid walks in a department store and they see their favorite logo, that they want the product, they don't even know what the product is." So when we go get ice cream, what ice cream do the kids want? Well, the one that's tied to one of their favorite cartoons. And you start realizing that, "Oh, this is a path to something bigger." And that's what I did with NFTs. I jumped in on your projects. I've only invested in one other project, which is the Scremlins you mentioned earlier. But the reason is because I saw the potential of what was bigger. The NFT was like a trading card, and I used to collect basketball cards when I was a kid. And then there was these things called Pogs that we collected and things like that.

(00:13:50):
But the collecting piece, there was a bigger community. I used to go to these trading events and there would be people that had boxes of cards, and you'd go through looking for the rare ones or looking for the ones you wanted. With the Pogs, you'd get together and you would play each other to win them. So the fact that there was something more, and it was really just the ticket in, and that's kind of how I saw it. So with Dogliens, number one, the artwork is phenomenal. Using AI to create artwork is not that easy, even if you preload it. I was playing with it the other day, and I put 30 pictures of myself in, and I still got pictures back with three arms and missing teeth. And I'm like, "How is this possible?" I'm training this with my own pictures and I'm like, "Is that what I really look like?" But the point I'm trying to make is you really found a passion there and grew that, but the community piece was super, super interesting.

(00:14:44):
So, let's talk a little bit about that year and a half, that discovery phase. You almost launched, you didn't. I think NFTs is a legit business model, and I've come to realize that it's here to stay, it's not going anywhere because the artwork is a piece of it, but it's a piece of a bigger picture. So what were some of those lessons in that first year and a half you learned that made Dogliens such a success when you did launch it?

Simon Lovell (00:15:18):
I think a big one was leadership of the community. Because when you're on Facebook, yes, there's some funky posts from people, whatever, but there's no toxicity. I just didn't feel that anyway, personally from what I created. But in being in some of these communities, the Web3 space, in many ways, is going through a level of maturity. And I think in business, we understand that cycle. So cultivating healthy community was something that was very important to me because I'd experienced unhealthy community. So really, a lot of the things that I've created, and the programs that I've created for entrepreneurs, it's because I've seen a problem and I've seen something that I don't like, and I'm like, "In the thing that I'm going to create, I want to cultivate healthy community." So that was the first part of it, was making sure that was in place.

(00:16:16):
The next part was the utility part because what happens is a lot of these projects come out, and granted, you have projects from artists, and for a lot of people, they're collecting art, but you have, in the NFT space, this thing called rug pulls. And these rug pulls are when people put out a project, there's no intention to do anything with it, and it's just a cash grab. So there's a lot of manipulation in the space. A lot of people don't come in because it's seen as scammy or whatever. So, for me, what I wanted to do was make sure that I added a lot of value. And projects struggle to do that because they just put together this art, but then there's nothing else there to keep the community interested. So for me, as a coach, the first thing that made sense was to tie what I do to the NFT, which I think actually a lot of people can do.

(00:17:14):
For listeners, they've got an existing business, they've got a consulting business or a coaching business or whatever that business is, there's a way that you can tie what you do to the NFT. So that was the first thing that I did. The second thing that I did was also looking outside of my skillset to add other utility. So for example, the connections that I was making in Hollywood and making phone calls and having conversations. The great thing about the NFT space is that the community wants to help. They want to get involved. So I started to have conversations so that I could bring in other utility, bring in other experts. And of course, this is bringing in my Web2 skillset, putting together a course and bringing in experts. It's also happening here on a podcast. So that was another lesson, which was learning what the frustrations were within the community and doing exactly the opposite, under-promising and over-delivering.

(00:18:15):
Seeing and being in projects myself where I was told that something was happening but it didn't arrive, making sure that I delivered on my roadmap and making sure that the community got constant value from me, coming from multiple directions. I'll give you another example of this recently. So, one thing in Discord, which is this platform for the community to chat. I was doing VC chats, which is voice chats to the holders. So there's gated access. So you connect the NFT and then the holders get access to me, which is important because if they're in communication with the founder, they feel safe. And safety in the NFT space is very important. So with Metaverse being this thing that I'd heard about but not experienced, I'll tell you something interesting that happened. When Dolgiens came out and the art came out and people were saying that they were loving it, and by the way, that's one of the big fears because in an NFT launch, you have what's called the reveal, and then what happens is all the art gets revealed.

(00:19:16):
So there's this fear of, "Are people going to like it?" It was very well received. But what started to happen afterwards was that people wanted to commission me for my AI art. Now, I'll be transparent, I can't even draw a stick man well. But for me, with so many creative ideas in my head, being able to produce the AI art and then master that over a period of months and months and months of which I still do today, it became attractive for collectors to get 1/1 art from me, which is a custom piece. Then I wanted to create a better experience. So instead of having these Discord VC chats because someone commissioned to me do some 1/1 art, I actually went into a metaverse, it's called Spatial, and I put that art on the wall for him to see instead of sending it to him on Discord. Then that opened up my eyes in terms of I could create an environment in the Metaverse to actually coach.

(00:20:20):
So then I used Upwork to find a builder to create a metaverse for a coffee shop called Ralph's. Now, how did that come about? The community, which is not something that I did in my previous businesses, the community was building the story and the locations. So we had a VC chat and I asked the community, "What should we call it?" And someone came up with Ralph's because Ralph is one of the main characters. So then I took that idea and I decided to build a coffee shop called Ralph's, of which now I just came down from my home having done a workshop to holders on storytelling in the Metaverse. So to me, that's really interesting because that's where things are going. Something really interesting actually happened this week, which was when it comes to Twitter, we have Twitter spaces, so people have to request to be on stage to speak. That's a big fear for a lot of people, and I'm a big advocate of the mental health side. What was super interesting was that when this person, they're not a hold of Dogliens, but they're someone that came into a metaverse chat.

(00:21:27):
They said that by being in the Metaverse, it removed this barrier of fear and they felt more safe just having a coffee chat because of the environment of the Metaverse. That was super interesting to me that I could create a digital environment and make it an environment where someone could feel safe to speak, but they didn't feel the pressure of, say, putting their hand up and requesting to be on a Twitter space. That blew my mind. And then another thing happened yesterday, which was part of Dogliens, is we have a writer's room, which is the holders put together ideas of how the story will go, and then I have a podcast called Dogliens, which is basically the lore and the story of it unfolding. And one of the holders posted and they won a Growler for their entry, which is one of our rare Dogliens. And he said that really helped to build his confidence. That's the reason why I'm in Web3. That's the reason why I'm in NFTs. I'm here to change. It's great, the financial side. We reached 100 ETH in secondary sales.

(00:22:31):
There's a financial opportunity for builders, which is, I feel, if you've got integrity, if you've got a great business, it's a way to actually generate something. But the flip of that also is this, it's different ways to create change. When Meta first came out and Mark Zuckerberg talked about the Metaverse, I was like, "This is going to create a lot of disconnection. It's going to be destructive." Looking at it from a mental health and emotional intelligence perspective. But then I started to think about the opposite, which is, "What if someone feels safer to actually go and have an avatar and put it into the Metaverse and that could be an avenue for them to actually transform?" Like you said, AJ, the reality is it's here. It's what we do with it that's important.

AJ Roberts (00:23:21):
You mentioned some interesting things there. I think the idea of the Metaverse, a lot of people say they're not going to live in this virtual world. But what they don't understand is that it shifts experiences. And where I think the Metaverse is going to be huge is for live events. You are always going to get people who want to travel and go to something live and be around other people, and then you're going to get the people who, one, can't afford it because they can't afford a plane ticket, they can't afford a hotel. And a lot of people, to afford it in the past, would put stuff on credit cards. Well, now they're maxed out on credit cards. So there's a lot of people who are restricted from that sense. Then there's the people who don't want to travel because maybe they have a family and they value the time they spend, so they want to see their kids go to bed every night, so they don't want to be gone for four or five days.

(00:24:07):
There is those types of people, but what the Metaverse does, in essence, and I'm a big UFC fan, to go to a UFC fight is very different than watching it on TV. The atmosphere adds to it, and I would argue any live entertainment. There's something being live versus just listening to it. But now you can change that experience and be there live through the Metaverse because if you've ever put on virtual reality, the brain really does struggle to see. You've all seen those videos where someone's getting attacked by something and they fall over or they're swinging and they punch the TV or something because the mind isn't able to separate that. And even at Legoland, we take the kids. And it's a 340 ride or whatever, but you feel you're on the rollercoaster and you're not. You're just sitting in a seat and the seat's moving, but there's moments that you freak out because it feels like you're about to fall off the ride.

(00:25:03):
And it's designed that way, but it's interesting, even though I've been on the ride several times with the kids, I still will flinch because, again, the mind is easily convinced. So, when you create these scenarios that change and shift the experience, it opens up new possibilities for individuals. And I think that's something that anyone listening, maybe they're going, "Oh, I'm not interested in NFTs or Web 3.0 or whatever", which I would say you probably should have some interest. But from a business standpoint, what I love hearing is you mentioned you zigged when everyone zagged, right? That's how you created uniqueness. You brought in things that worked in your previous businesses into this one, added new things. But really, the focus is around the community. And I've seen, in the community, things that weren't received well and how you responded. And if we look at the debacle that happened over Christmas with Southwest-

Simon Lovell (00:25:59):
I was personally impacted by that.

AJ Roberts (00:26:02):
... the CEO and the company, as fast as they could, got involved. And that's the world we live in now where CEOs don't get to hide behind glass boxes and nobody know who they are. They're expected to be on the front lines. And one of our mentors and people we look up to being both from England is Richard Branson. And that's something he talks about. When disaster happens, he's always the first there with the companies because he realized a long time ago that. And I think that's really, really key. Now the project's launched and you have this community, what are some of the struggles that you have continuing to build this, whether it's getting new holders or whether it's managing the community? What are some challenges you've been facing?

Simon Lovell (00:26:51):
I would say I'm big into personal development and actually project's about that, but managing my own burnout, I think, because I'm on a lot of Twitter spaces and I'm engaging a lot with the community, that's one thing I've got to constantly check in, which I think is very important for a lot of people to do. Like you say, an NFT project is about bringing in new holders, so that's about being on spaces and letting other people think about different ways to collaborate. The NFT space, a lot of people, they're in it for different reasons, but a lot of people are in it for the money. So keeping people engaged is a struggle, but it's also a challenge. We talked about the Metaverse and you talked about experiences. Have you tried yet the Oculus or Meta Quest? Have you tried that yet?

AJ Roberts (00:27:39):
No, the only VR headset, Samsung sent it to Jenny. My wife is Samsung, I'm Apple. But they sent her a cardboard box one that you just put the phone in and then put it on. And I tried that, and even that was freakily real. So I have not tried one of the Oculus'.

Simon Lovell (00:27:57):
So one of the things that I did was I bought a Meta Quest 2 because the coffee shop is in VR as well through Spatial. So I'm experiencing new challenges with the Metaverse like people coming in today, jumping on the tables. It's just managing this new thing, but that's also not a reason not to do it because it's such a learning curve. A lot of people, they've not been into a metaverse before. So those are the challenges which I'm experiencing, which is drawing people in. So you have to do giveaways and lots of different things to test, but then if you do a giveaway, the challenge with that is, is someone going to win it and then pull it straight up for sale because they want the liquidity from what you've given them? So if you're going to do a giveaway, giving it to the right types of communities, which I think is a big marketing lesson in itself.

(00:28:50):
So I did a collaboration and someone said, "Hey, I want to give away 20 NFTs." And I said, "Hey, you want to make sure that you give those NFTs to the right 20 people because if you give them to the wrong 20 people, they're just instantly going to get dumped for liquidity. But if you give them to the right people that are interested in storytelling, they're going to hold those NFTs, they're going to build a character around them, they're going to buy more," which they did. So the choices that we make are very important. Now, if you have a project which doesn't have the utility like I do, then you're more likely to have those issues go on. So the challenges of an NFT and Web3 business are radically different from a Web2 business. And also, let's be honest, you've also got everything publicly on the blockchain.

(00:29:48):
So there's transparency around what's happening. People see that as a pro, and people see that as a con, but I'll give everyone a warning. If you go from a Web2 business into a Web3 business, you're going to have different people calling you out for different things because you just don't have that in Web2. So if you're also going from Web2 into Web3, there's also an opportunity to also educate because a lot of the projects that I'm in, and I've invested a decent amount, I'm in those because of the founder and I know that they understand business. I just got into a new project and I was listening to the founder talk yesterday about their decisions around IP and making the brand kid-friendly. This is what I'll say is an opportunity, there are so many eyes on Web3 right now of intellectual property, IE, big companies that are looking at creativity of different projects to then invest in them, to partner with them. And you see the linkups happening.

(00:30:57):
You see some great ones happening in Web3, you also see some terrible ones because the companies don't have the right advisors coming in, understanding how the community in Web3 works. It's a very tight community. You look at CrossFit, right? People think that's small, but it's big when you go into it. When you're in there, you see the depth and width of it. It's the same in Web3. When you go in, yes, to a lot of people, it's small, but when you're in it, there's so much happening. But I would say it's wild. It's wild, it's creative, it's fun, and there's great opportunity. I did a talk and I did a workshop for a group who's interested in AI. And a lot of the resistance around NFTs and Web3, there was two, one was, it's a scam, which I think is what we see happening.

(00:31:56):
And then of course, there are security measures that need to be dealt with in the Web3 space and NFTs. But the other one, which I think is worth bringing up, was the understanding of utility. And when someone understands this missing link between the token, which is the NFT, and the utility of a skillset, and those two things being linked, I think that's when people start to get it.

AJ Roberts (00:32:22):
I think what's interesting is, like anything, client selection is a very important thing, and it depends on how sustainable you want something to be. So if you're selling something and you just want someone to buy it once and then never buy from you again, that's the projects where people burn. They make some money and then they disappear and maybe they do it again and they'll do it until they get shut down.

Simon Lovell (00:32:50):
They're shortsighted, right?

AJ Roberts (00:32:51):
Right. And then there's the projects that have long-term vision. And those are the ones that seem to be playing momentum. What's interesting when I've observed what you're doing, and you mentioned this to me and I'd love for you to go deeper because you mentioned community, and obviously, you've had mentors during this journey, but you mentioned that you've been on phone calls and in chats and things like that very, very differently than when you were in, essentially, the digital course industry, the expert industry. And what I mean by that is the access to certain people or your connections that you've made are considerably different. What is different about the space that has so far, maybe it's because it's new and is yet to be completely corrupt by money, but there seems to be this willingness to share and willingness, if someone's interested, to include them like I've never seen before.

Simon Lovell (00:34:00):
If I'm honest, and this could be just my mindset of it, but I think it might be true for a lot of people, which is, I think in the coaching space in Web2, you get a sense that, "If I get on a call with someone, they're just going to want to sell me something." So there's this guard, there's that kind of aspect to it. In Web3, there's a different energy to it. It's very difficult to explain. Some of the Web2 stuff that I've experienced started feeling a bit icky to me, just seeing the same things all the time. And I think the word's alignment, right? Over time, I think if we grow and we start to experience with new things, we start to move away from the things that feel a little bit heavy to us.

(00:34:53):
So for me, Web3 and NFTs felt fresh, it felt creative. It just opened a door. And I actually have a course and I talk about this quantum zone where we bring two things together and create something new. The puppet thing, which is this puppetpreneurs, I was going to do an NFT for that, but I didn't have the experience of the community and understanding traits. You have to understand things like traits. What are traits? Why does a community value that because in NFTs, there's a single rarity? So people look at that. I know that you look at that, right? So it just felt right to me. So I started to get into conversations via these VC calls, these voice chats, and why is that the case? Because a lot of people are anonymous in the NFT space, they don't share themselves. It's very normal for us to have a Zoom or be in-person, but in the NFT space, it's a little bit different.

(00:35:50):
So VCs are something that you do. But when I started to have these conversations, I don't know, it just felt like a different home for me. It just felt special. And I think a lot of people, despite some of the, quote-unquote, negatives of the NFT space or Web3 space, which I think will change over time with mass adoption, I just think it's a very great community to be part of.

AJ Roberts (00:36:15):
What would you say, because obviously, a lot of people listening, probably they're not going to pivot their business completely, they have a certain business, they've had it for a while, that continues to grow, but what are some of the things that you think would be valuable for a Web2 business to learn from the Web3 world?

Simon Lovell (00:36:37):
First things first, I think you've got to buy your first NFT. If you go to dogliens.com, I actually built this in Kartra, the site and also the opt-in page, et cetera. I think you got to buy your first NFT. And you do that to notice how you feel. You also do it through a different lens. You do it through a lens of, "How am I feeling with this experience?" Go into a community, see how it feels. And as an entrepreneur, as a business owner, you'll start to get ideas. When I got the VR headset, I got that because, obviously, Ralph's coffee shop was in VR, but when I put it on and I was experiencing it, it opened up so many ideas of, "I could do this, I could do this, and I could do this." I think the other opportunity too, which I think is huge, I think it's massive for people listening, which is internet marketing and email marketing is not adopted in the Web3 space right now. I think I was getting opt-in rates for Dogliens of 80, 90%.

AJ Roberts (00:37:38):
Incredible.

Simon Lovell (00:37:39):
Right? Because you look at a project, and a project is going to have what? They're going to have an OpenSea for buying an NFT. So if you go to OpenSea.io and look up Dogliens, you'll find a new sea of Dogliens there. Then you're going to have a Discord community. And then you're going to have a website. 99% of the websites do not have email opt-in whatsoever. There's a massive opportunity there for marketers. You also talked about people coming in and destroying it. So, I think doing that in a conscious way is going to be important. But I think it's a great opportunity for high-integrity marketers to come in and do good and help projects to succeed that are also doing good, two people doing good together versus people who are just out to get a quick buck, make money, rip people off. Just like you've got marketers that are shady, you've also got great marketers who are doing it in a really cool way, in an innovative way. So I think there's opportunities in many different ways.

(00:38:41):
Now, segue into you, I also know for you, you're really getting into things like AI. I also think things like ChatGPT and Midjourney. I know from speaking to other experts that Facebook Ad click-through rates are massive with AI art. I think that also ChatGPT is great for accelerating marketing ideas. I don't think that necessarily you should put something into ChatGPT and then put a whole book out and make it out as your own, having produced it from ChatGPT. But I think if you're struggling in your mind to come up with three ideas for a podcast, you could get a prompt to help you to accelerate learning and education. One thing with Dogliens is that it's the sci-fi and fantasy space which I enjoy, but there's certain things that I need to know about that space that I need to learn, but I asked the AI. For example, our second collection, the Headache collection, which is the bad guy, I'm also linking that utility to teaching entrepreneurs and business owners and founders how to use AI to launch a project or to use that in their businesses.

(00:39:56):
So I think the opportunity, I see it like this, when you go to a Tony Robbins event and we've been to Date With Destiny, right? Tony is great at opening the door to go deeper into these other things. So it's like he introduces you to new modalities. I think the benefit of getting into NFTs is a new world being opened of, "If it wasn't for NFTs, I wouldn't have gotten into AI. If it wasn't for AI, I wouldn't have learned about music AI where you can type in a prompt and come up with a music track." That then, you're going to start to use that in your business. You're going to start to make your business more optimized, more creative, and that's going to bring in new clientele.

(00:40:40):
I also think that if you're not getting into NFTs, you're also going to most likely regret it, I would say in a year's time, but definitely in two years' time because you see Gary Vaynerchuk, he has a restaurant that's linked to an NFT whereby it's a membership to a high-end sushi restaurant, for example. You've got so many things. A house was recently bought linked with an NFT.

AJ Roberts (00:41:08):
It's interesting because when I look at it, I think you're right, experiencing something, for me, I love to go experience things. And one side of my brain is experiencing it in the moment, the other side of my brain is looking at it, "What is happening? How is this affecting me? What feelings am I getting? How can this transcend into different businesses?" So I think getting involved is key because you're right, I've seen things I wouldn't have seen having just asked you just from the outside. So being involved in the community and seeing the way the Discord channel works and seeing how that then links to Twitter, you start to understand things and how people operate and what they want differently.

(00:41:51):
And you get ideas and you get thought processes. And that's the same with AI, for me. As I'm watching AI and they're looking at all the companies that are coming out as businesses and then looking at how do you take certain things and put it into your day-to-day life for higher productivity? Because I'm all about optimization, all about improvement. I'm always looking at, "Okay, how do we collapse time and get the same outcome?" So essentially, how can I do less and get more always? So when I look at that, the one thing I realized with all of it is creativity is the key here. And you mentioned prompts earlier. Prompts, for those who don't know are the inputs that you put in, the questions that you ask.

(00:42:31):
And reality is that if you're not a critical thinker, you're not creative, you don't know how to go deeper with the questions, you get back a certain answer, but can you then go deeper? And it's the same when you're in sales. When you're sitting across from someone and you're trying to sell them something, the salespeople who do best are the people who can go deeper. Someone gives a surface answer and they say, "Well, that's not the real answer. Why don't you explain that a little to me? What do you mean when you say that?" You have to be able to do the same thing with the prompts. And the businesses that are spurring up are the businesses or the business owners who have gone, "Okay, we know how to create a formula, a series of prompts to create an outcome, and you are going to pay us to do that."

(00:43:13):
So you can be on the consumer side or you can be on the creative side. The creative side's always going to bring the most money. This is the side you want to be on, and you want to be able to say, "How do we do that within our business?" Now, it might be in your business, you use certain things that you pay for, but then that creates an outcome for you that creates revenue, right? So you have to be able to look at it like that. With that in mind, where do you see things going in the next, I used to say five to 10 years, but it seems everything happens within 12 months, but where do you see the future of NFTs Web 0.3 and the coaching-consulting expert course creator world because most of the people, listeners, are probably somewhat in that world?

Simon Lovell (00:43:59):
First of all, I see this space evolving over the next year with better technology to make things safer, which I think is important to bring more people in due to the amount of scams that happen and other things of such. Obviously, I think it's also linked to the price of Ethereum and Bitcoin and the crypto world as a whole. But I think the more people that are coaches, consultants, for example, the more people that are using their skillset, I think the more... It works like this, you see a testimonial and then you get interested. I've seen on Facebook, I've not been on Facebook, but I've seen over the past couple of months a massive amount of shift that talk about AI. I think that once those worlds start to merge more, like I'm bringing in NFTs and then using AI, so I'm merging these things. I think that one links to the other.

(00:44:59):
So AI will link to NFTs and NFTs will link to AI. I think there's going to be a critical point where there's going to be a massive surge. Then, how do you get an edge? You have to stay on top of it. There's a new version of Midjourney that's just come out that makes the art so much better, and it's so much more intelligent. It's ridiculous how intelligent the AI is. So I think it's about maximizing the new technology that's coming out and staying ahead. It's moving at such a rapid pace, it's absolutely scary. But I have a question for you because what I sense from you is an acceleration, right? You were like, "Yeah, I'm not really interested in NFTs." But then you got a Doglien. I'm curious to know that point where you started to become a collector and you wanted to get more.

(00:45:49):
What was the mindset shift? Was it a connection to the character? Was it the story? What turned you from someone that was on the edge and then you got your first one to being like, "Oh my God, I love this and I want more." There was something that happened. The reason why I'm asking that is that needs to happen of what happened to you to more people, but you had to go through steps to get there.

AJ Roberts (00:46:16):
It goes back to suddenly seeing the potential beyond the art because I love art. I'm a big collector with art and was an artist when I was a kid. So that piece is cool. But honestly, when I saw the Bored Apes and I saw the CryptoPunks, I'm like, "It's okay art." So it was like, "I like it, but there's 2,000 or 5,000 or 10,000 of these things. They're not unique. Who cares?" But when I realized there was a community and there was something behind most of the art that was successful driving it, whether that was a membership or a ticket to an event or whatever, I started to understand that, "Wait a minute, as a business owner of an NFT, you're in the business of keeping your members." Because yes, you make money when they flip something, but if you just have a bunch of flippers, your floor price, which is what you can purchase an NFT for, the cheapest in that collection, is significantly lower, like 10, 20 bucks.

(00:47:39):
If you want a 1,000, 10,000, 20,000, I don't know what Bored Ape is now, but at one point it was $250,000 to buy one, you have to have people who hold because the rarity goes up of the availability. In order to have a group of people that hold onto something, there has to be extreme value there. In my mind, the entire online industry is shifting to results-based marketing, meaning people are not going to purchase things unless they know that there's a result on the other side. And they're going to know that by research purchases and needing to see testimonials, case studies, actual evidence that this thing works. As people become more educated on everything, their decision-making process is slowing down. Their attention span is getting less, but the impulse is getting longer because at first when this happened, they're purchasing impulse buys all the time, and then they realize that this isn't serving them.

(00:48:51):
So due to, I would say, a reduction in funds, people are much more careful with their money now. Even though they're rich or they see there's a potential crash in the economy, "So how do we prepare for that? Okay, well, we have to pull back on our spending now so that we have cash for when everything collapses, we can invest." So there's different thought processes there, but the flip was literally seeing like, "Oh, okay," in my opinion, "the world we're heading to is going to be based around customers for life." And this NFT world, Dogliens especially, because obviously, not all NFT projects are created equal, being a marketer, being into storytelling, I resonate with it right away. The artwork, we know we both love dogs, it was just cool. It was like cool artwork.

(00:49:51):
But then realizing, "Oh, I could see this as a movie. Oh, I could see this as a cartoon series on TV. Oh, I could see these as plushies." And then seeing, "Okay, being involved in experiencing, how do we actually contain a community and work with them to grow this thing so they become a part of the product?" And I know a lot of people in the NFT world would probably cringe at the things that I'm saying because they don't want it to seem like it's a business, but the reality is business is business. You don't have a unique snowflake, it's all the same. Like you were mentioning earlier, you still drive email lists because it's a key component of business, you don't just have it. And you have huge opt-in numbers because in that world, it's not normal.

(00:50:36):
So when people see it, yeah, they give you their email because they're not used to getting spammed by 7,000 NFT projects. The curiosity in me is just, "Oh, how do we apply this beyond to all business? How do we create this involvement of the community? How do we get it where we have holders, members that don't want to leave?" Because the way I look at it, and I'll use a mastermind because you and I have spitballed on how would you use an NFT for a mastermind? Well, if you have a $50,000 mastermind and I sell you an NFT, so your membership is that NFT, I can charge annual dues, no problem. I can do it separately from the NFT. But if you have that and then there's only 100 of them or 150, now I'm responsible for making you stay. And if you want to leave and you can sell that and you can sell it whatever you want, now you can determine the value of the mastermind because that first purchase, you get one year free with the purchase of the NFT or whatever.

(00:51:36):
If I've got a year out of it and I'm done, what am I going to flip that for? And if I flip it for 10, well, now my mastermind value just dropped to $10,000 because supply and demand is what drives price. So if you can operate from that and as a business owner almost be forced into thinking like that, you're going to have a much better product and business long term because you're now thinking of everything of not how do I get another sale, but how do I get a sale and keep that person as a customer forever and have them be a participant in the growth of this business. And I think that's the difference in the past. Even companies that have amazing customer experience, they've never included their customers in the growth of the company. And we're shifting to that in a lot of areas.

(00:52:28):
We're doing it at Kartra and WebinarJam and EverWebinar. We're doing so much more with the community than we've ever done before. The reality is that they're the reason we get to eat. So, it's a lot easier to keep somebody than it is to go replace them. So that, for me, was the shift, is I could see how these worlds were colliding, and I realized there's a ton of lessons here because it is a new marketplace, it's green. So, a lot of things that you might pull over, let's say from the internet marketing world, are going to get rejected quickly because this community already has a set of standards. They already have a level. And I've seen that with shitty projects that have gone and dumped and basically disappeared. The community is now on high alert for that.

Simon Lovell (00:53:23):
Oh, they are. The guard's up, for sure. The other thing too, which is we were talking about adoption, there's something called POAP, which is proof of attendance. So I think you'll start to see in more Web2 events where people go and there'll be a QR code on the screen, for example, whereby then they'll get an NFT. So there'll be new entry points happening. The other thing too, which I think is worth mentioning, which is while I have utility of coaching, et cetera, the usage right now of that can be low. So I truly believe that the Web3, Web2, the differences between the communities is usage of utility and how that plays into where we're going in the future. But you make some very important points definitely around people's perception of things and exciting opportunities for a lot of different businesses.

AJ Roberts (00:54:23):
Yeah, I think it's one of those things, you mentioned earlier that in reality, if you get into the world a little bit, you'll start to see how you could use that to your advantage. For a lot of people, this isn't going to be a pivot. This is going to be adding an additional element. And you go back to collector cards and why people collect things. It means something to them. That's it. The value of something is based on what it means to somebody. And we've seen that with collectible toys because the toy companies got smart and they just started making the old toys again. But they make them slightly different because health standards are probably different in terms of code of what you can make for a child now. Well, if it's different, there's still people who go pay a lot for the original.

(00:55:09):
And I think that's key when you start looking at your business. You start to think of it as a subscription business, as a reoccurring revenue business, even if it was annually. It changes it because you have to earn that sale. So when you make the first sale, you have to realize your marketing never stops. And customer experience, the customer journey doesn't stop at the conversion, that's the beginning. And I look at it like martial arts. They say when you get a black belt, that's the beginning of your journey. You've just earned the right to now learn how to be a martial artist. And I think business owners need to understand when they get a customer, they've now earned the right to be in business and they have to figure that out. I know we're tied on time here. Is there anything we haven't covered that you wanted to get into today?

Simon Lovell (00:56:01):
Actually, you just touched on something briefly, which is one of the things that I brought from Web2 into Web3 that I learned was gamification. I think that a lot of people in Web3 are gamers, but you can also utilize, I did that in my company helping fitness business owners, which was tiers, levels. So with NFTs, depending on how many someone holds, you can hold one, I don't know how many Dogliens you have, but you have multiple, right? So when it comes to membership, and I don't know whether Kartra are going to do token gate access or something, whatever you guys are planning in the future, but if anyone's thinking about doing an NFT project, it's also worth learning the gamification side for keeping people engaged and also understanding how people collect because when someone buys your NFT, most likely what's going to happen is that they're going to want more because it's just by the nature they like it.

(00:56:55):
And then if you design the project well, they're going to want to be up because status is very important to people. Now, maybe someone doesn't have the ability to buy a Bored Ape because for a lot of people, it's a status symbol. That's why people have it as a profile picture. But if you launch a project, people want to rank up to the highest level because it's a level of status. So you also have to cater that. So I think the topic of gamification within project is also an important one.

AJ Roberts (00:57:29):
Yeah, that's a great point. And actually, I was thinking earlier, but I lost that train of thought was I know with your mindset course that you did, you had a lot of gamification built in for completion, so people would actually-

Simon Lovell (00:57:45):
Super High performance, yeah.

AJ Roberts (00:57:46):
... so people would actually go through and consume because what you found was, yeah, a lot of people purchase, but 80% never even open it. Out of the 20% that do, only 5% ever complete it. And you were like, "I'm not going to have that. If the whole course is supposed to be about transformation, we're going to make sure they go through it." And you had a lot of things set up to do that.

Simon Lovell (00:58:07):
I still have that training, Super High Performance. But yeah, I designed that, again, I mentioned it at the start, my frustration was with low completion. So I literally had a thought of, "What if I could kick someone out without a refund?" And I was just like, "That would be ballsy." So I did it and the fear turned into people saying, "I really needed that." So my clients have to fill out a form every single day. And if they don't fill it in, you get a strike. And then if there's three strikes, or actually four, the program's locked down and there's no coming back in and they sign a contract to that. But what I'm doing is I'm raising the bar on standard and transformation.

(00:58:48):
I'm saying, "I'm here as the coach because I want to help you. Are you willing to do the work?" But a lot of people say yes, but they don't do it. As a coach, one of the things you learn is that you have to build in consequences. And I think a lot of entrepreneurs are afraid of implementing that consequence because they're afraid of the client reaction when actually, it can be the flip opposite. And that's what happened when I did Super High Performance. In fact, one of my most popular articles for entrepreneur.com, I think it's in their top-20 articles of all time or 25, is called The Navy Seals Of Personal Growth. And it talks about the neuroscience of behavior and understanding how to get people results.

(00:59:30):
And I think, especially for a lot of, maybe people listening who have courses and trainings, what's worse than someone investing in that and then not getting the change that you as the expert and the person that wants to create an impact, they just don't do it? It's hugely frustrating. It's not frustrating to those that just want to make the money, but as someone that is here to install change in someone else so that they can have a better life, sometimes you got to make a power move. So I would say that those gamification strategies are very important, but also, NFTs is a power move too, so yeah.

AJ Roberts (01:00:11):
We could keep talking about this, but I know you got to tight deadline and got to go. So where can people find more about your project, you, and follow along if they're interested?

Simon Lovell (01:00:20):
The Kartra design site at dogliens.com. There's also a button to click if you're a beginner, so you can learn. I've put together a mini course about how to buy your first NFT. Made it very simple, small series of videos. You can also check out the podcast to get up to speed with the story. And then obviously, OpenSea. Once you got your ETH, head to OpenSea, go and find a Doglien that you love. What's your favorite breed?

AJ Roberts (01:00:47):
Pit bulls?

Simon Lovell (01:00:48):
No, but in Dogliens.

AJ Roberts (01:00:49):
Oh.

Simon Lovell (01:00:49):
Smilers, right?

AJ Roberts (01:00:50):
Yeah. Well, Smilers, they're a little cheeky. They remind me of the Gremlins.

Simon Lovell (01:00:54):
There you go. So maybe there'll be a Smiler and maybe AJ will get frustrated if you buy one of those. Yeah.

AJ Roberts (01:01:00):
Cool. Well, let us know when you get your first NFT. We'll have Simon back on the show soon. Thanks so much for being here. We'll see you guys on the next episode.

Simon Lovell (01:01:06):
Take care.

AJ Roberts (01:01:07):
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