011 Genius Adaptation: Joanna Kinsman's Remarkable Success–Pivoting from Internet Marketing to Selling Masks

Welcome to the Paid to Create Podcast! In this episode, we’re joined by Joanna Kinsman, fashion entrepreneur and founder of Kinsman Kini Bands. Joanna opens up about her transition from internet marketing to launching her own fashion business with low overhead. She shares fascinating insights about overcoming challenges, building a supportive community around her brand, and the importance of flexibility in the ever-evolving world of business.

When COVID-19 hit, Joanna swiftly pivoted her business to meet the new demands, ingeniously creating masks out of bikini material. Not only did this save her business but also sparked a wave of opportunities for other brands to build additional revenue streams. Her remarkable agility and forward-thinking approach serve as a powerful lesson for all entrepreneurs facing uncertainty.

Learn about the intricate process of getting a product into retail stores, a feat Joanna achieved with exceptional finesse. She talks about the struggles, the strategies, and the relentless persistence that finally paid off. But it’s not just about retail – Joanna’s expertise in building customer relationships shines through as she discusses the importance of personal connection and high-quality customer service.

This episode also dives into the behind-the-scenes of managing a small business, working with larger companies, and maintaining the balance between passion and pragmatism in hiring decisions. Listen as Joanna shares her strategy for maintaining resilience amidst the highs and lows of business ownership.

The conversation further explores the power of an effective email, the art of cold outreach, and the potential of merchandising to add an extra layer of brand value. Joanna's tale is filled with practical advice and heartening wisdom that will inspire you, whether you're a budding entrepreneur or an established business owner looking to scale up.

From testing new ideas and spotting trends to acknowledging the value of hard work and celebrating wins, this episode encapsulates the thrilling roller coaster ride of entrepreneurship. It underscores the significance of agility, the importance of passion, and the undeniable power of personal touch in sales and marketing.

Immerse yourself in the world of fashion entrepreneurship and come away with newfound knowledge, inspiration, and actionable takeaways. Don't miss out – tune in now!

Transcript

Joanna Kinsman (00:00):

Getting into internet marketing was what made me realize that I could actually start a business with low overhead and followed my actual passion, which has always been fashion. And now I've got my Kini Bands hair accessories, made a pivot during COVID to do this embroidery, screen printing and everything like that, that became just more of a need. And so now I'm just working on all these different businesses now, and I'm still learning from you guys.

Sarah Jenkins (00:25):

Welcome to the Paid to Create podcast, where we dig into the secret strategies of successful creators making a lucrative living. So sit back, relax, and enjoy the show.

AJ Roberts (00:34):

I just have to tell you about Kartra, the marketing platform that is seriously transformed my business. You know how running a business can be insanely time consuming, right? Well, Kartra has been a game changer for me. It's honestly like having an entire marketing team in my pocket. And what I love most is that it automates all the tedious daily tasks for me, from marketing to sales, to even customer experience. I can't believe how much time and energy I've saved since I started using it and get this, with Kartra I can create websites, funnels, courses, membership sites, email campaigns, calendars, surveys, you name it. It's made managing my business so much simpler and more affordable. Honestly, I can't recommend Kartra enough. If you're curious, head to paidtocreatepodcast.com\kartra to start your trial. Trust me, you won't regret it. Welcome everybody to the Paid To Create podcast. I'm AJ Roberts, alongside you, my co-host and the boss lady Sarah Jenkins. And our guest today is Joanna Kinsman. She's the founder of Kinsman Kini Bands, Kini Supply Company and Scale Into Retail. Joanna, welcome to the show.

Joanna Kinsman (01:34):

Thank you, thank you, thank you.

AJ Roberts (01:36):

So glad to have you here. When I first met you, it was I think at an internet marketing event, and I think you were an assistant for someone, or you're helping somebody out working the crowd, and then you went into fashion. So how in the world do you go from the world of marketing to starting your own fashion business?

Joanna Kinsman (01:58):

Well, I actually got into marketing completely randomly. I found a job on Craigslist, you guys, when I moved out to San Diego from Boston. And getting into internet marketing was what made me realize that I could actually start a business with low overhead. And you guys really were the ones that taught me that I could do this. And so I was just working for all these different online entrepreneurs, starting with Dr. Mike, Kevin Nations, Maria Andros, and I worked obviously for you guys for a while too, so it's so cool. And everyone that I worked for, I'd pick up these different skill sets and until I figured it out on my own and followed my actual passion, which has always been fashion, and now I've got my Kini Bands hair accessories and made a pivot-

Sarah Jenkins (02:42):

Yeah.

Joanna Kinsman (02:43):

... Yeah. Made a pivot during COVID to do this embroidery, screen printing and everything like that, that became just more of a need. And so now I'm just working on all these different businesses now and I'm still learning from you guys.

AJ Roberts (02:58):

So with the pivot, obviously that came during COVID and your business, you pivoted Kini Bands to masks, right? And that-

Sarah Jenkins (03:12):

That was awesome.

AJ Roberts (03:13):

... And that was a huge-

Sarah Jenkins (03:13):

That was great.

AJ Roberts (03:14):

... huge shift for you. But then you started helping other brands. How did that come about? Because when you're building your own brand, oftentimes you're not really thinking like, "How can I help another brand?" But now so many brands are coming to you, so many companies and you're doing merch for them and building out additional revenue streams for them. So was that just an accidental thing or how did that come?

Joanna Kinsman (03:38):

So the pivot with the masks was interesting. Actually, I still remember I was out at Sarah's just hanging out during COVID at the start of it-

Sarah Jenkins (03:45):

Working.

Joanna Kinsman (03:46):

... Yes, working, yes, sorry, working. And I remember being asked by the fitness franchises that I work with and I'm getting all these emails, "Hey, can you guys make face masks? We really need them." And so kind of went down that path for a while, which was great. We had all kinds of extra fabric, the strings from Kini Bands and everything. So it was all right there and just set up perfectly for us to hop in and do that. We made cute masks with sequins and tigers and-

AJ Roberts (04:15):

Yeah, they're very fashionable.

Joanna Kinsman (04:16):

Yeah. [inaudible 00:04:16].

Sarah Jenkins (04:16):

Well, I'll drag you back. So you decided to do your Kini Bands, your hair things that obviously we know and love based on the bikini material that doesn't let your hair get all messed up [inaudible 00:04:28] in the ocean. That's the beach thing, which is really cool. But then your mask was the same thing. It was one of the most comfortable masks I'd ever worn. It was made of bikini material, so stretchy, but breathable and still safe, like the multiple layers. Oh, my word. They were the cutest masks ever. I sold them for you wherever I was it was like, "Where did you get your mask?" I'm like, "I have three in my purse. Would you like them?" Because I believed in them and I loved them. I mean, I know you had massive success with that, but I helped a little.

Joanna Kinsman (04:52):

You absolutely did. Thank you. Sarah's always been such a great supporter of me.

AJ Roberts (04:56):

So when you started the brand, obviously you said you built the confidence, you were working with different online marketers and you saw how to position products, how to get in front of an audience. So you saw the components to go into building a successful business, but the fashion industry is a very difficult business to crack into. And I remember all of a sudden you were doing runway shows and you had your designs and all of this stuff. Maybe go back to that journey, because I think for a lot of people like you, you had a dream and then you did something else, but then it was like, oh, maybe I can do this. But it's still a huge leap of faith. It still takes a lot of guts and probably a lot of hard work to get going. And so maybe you can talk about the beginning of that, the struggles you face, how you overcame those.

Joanna Kinsman (05:45):

Yeah, I mean, gosh, I was just telling someone about this yesterday, how I'd work my full-time job for whomever I was working for. So whether that was a 9:00 to 5:00 or eventually cut down my hours and then go home, open on my computer, and then turn to my business. So I was getting headaches from staring at a screen all day, working for someone else, then working for myself. But it was eventually able to make that switch. And it's so nice. I feel like so many people in the marketing industry are so flexible too and supportive that we want to see each other succeed and create. Sarah, for instance, you guys always knew that I had this passion project, so I was able to wean down my hours and kind of switch over into that. But it was certainly a struggle too, because I've always self-funded everything and-

Sarah Jenkins (06:39):

Well, that's what we admire though. We saw the entrepreneurship inside you and we're like, "We see that you can do it. You can do the work, you can hustle." So of course, we want to be there for you. We've done it. We've hustled. We've had to push days and days, hours on end, going to bed at midnight. So we saw you do it. Of course, we're going to be supportive. We understand.

Joanna Kinsman (06:53):

Yes, thank you. It makes all the difference. And I sort of try to instill the people now that work for me is like, let me support your dream and what you're doing, because I understand that maybe that you don't always want to work for me and how can I help?

AJ Roberts (07:08):

Yeah. One thing I admire about you is you go with the flow. And the reason I bring that up is because when you first started, it was bikinis, and then you had out of the extra material, you made the bikini Bands and people started asking about that. You saw the way the demand was, and you pivoted, with COVID, you pivoted. And now, if I'm not incorrect, the majority of the business is the creation for other brands. So on that journey, how have you been able to flow with that without getting attached to the product? Because I think a lot of businesses, they have all the elements, but sometimes the product that they think is the product that they're going to have the home run win, isn't, right? But they hold onto that for so long. And if you had held onto the making the Kinis, everything else that has come, all the products you've had, all the different fashion items never would've came. So what led you to just being open to those changes or moving with the flow, so to speak?

Joanna Kinsman (08:12):

Yeah, that's a really great question actually. I'm really diving back in because this is back in like 2014-

Sarah Jenkins (08:16):

OG, baby.

Joanna Kinsman (08:19):

... Yeah, when I made that switch and it took me, what they say, success leaves clues or I had so many people just sort of asking, and it took quite a few times to be like, "Oh, can I give you money for this product? Oh, you should really do this." And it took me a while to realize that I had an amazing product that I was just sitting on with Kini Bands. And that became just fun and easy. I really enjoyed focusing on getting my product into retail locations so that once I think I saw that first sale come in, then I get hooked. You're like, "Okay, well, there's one, there's more." And that became my obsession was getting into retail locations. So spas, resorts, fitness studios, salons, list building, and now I also help customers and clients to do that same thing with their products.

Sarah Jenkins (09:10):

So you did that, we went to the La Costa Resort & Spa, and we went to the Deepak Chopra Center and your Kini Bands were there, and I was like, "No way. That is so cool." It's cool like, "I know her." But I wondered how you got into that specifically? How do you get it into the retail store?

Joanna Kinsman (09:27):

And again, kind of going back to just picking up different skills, working for all these different successful marketers, I finally learned about list building and having a system following up using a CRM. So I just started-

Sarah Jenkins (09:41):

Like Kartra.

Joanna Kinsman (09:41):

Yes, yes.

Sarah Jenkins (09:42):

Shameless plugs.

Joanna Kinsman (09:43):

Love Kartra. Yeah, so I was figuring it out and then I realized that me apart though, getting into those retail spots was I would send out say, my email blasts. So then I've got all these cold leads and I would call the warm and the hot leads, basically anyone who asked for more information, then I was calling, so dialing for dollars, and that became the name of the game was just tallies every day of what stores I could get into.

AJ Roberts (10:12):

It's really interesting because I mean, I don't know anything about retail, right? I skipped that. I mean, ran a health club for a little bit that was close to retail as I would've ever gotten. Everything since then has been online, so for over 20 years now, just online. And that's kind of the world you came from. But it's interesting because really what it came down to was like you were knocking doors. And I think that's what I've seen with a lot of creators. Doesn't matter what they've created, the ones that's successful are the ones that keep putting their product in front of people, whether that's online or whether that's like you or you are reaching out to people and then through people who were curious or whatever, it was like, okay, follow up with them. But then you added the personal touch by calling them.

(10:53):

And so it was a lot of work, but you get into one and you're like, "Okay, this works." And you just kept going. There was so many people you hear on Shark Tank and things like that where they're like, "Oh, we want to break into retail." And they'll say like, "Well, what have you done?" And they're like, "Oh, we're just looking for the right connection." But those that seem to be successful are always the ones who just continue every day to do the mundane things that add up over time. And so it's super interesting. With that, was there any challenges getting into retail, like any issues with... Because they don't pay you upfront. You send a product, there's usually a 30 day or 60 day until they have to send you money or send product back, right? So was there any challenges with that?

Joanna Kinsman (11:34):

Yes, I've definitely had a lot of them. So one interesting thing is with accessories, you actually can, it's common to collect the money up front because we can ship same day, next day, maybe in a week or something like that. So that with the bigger accounts though, getting into these bigger, I mean, with Billabong, with hotels, it just, they've got terms. And so most of the time, fortunately, they paid and a lot of times they would be late, unfortunately, small invoices slip through the cracks of little hair ties. So that's another part of it too, is chasing those down.

(12:14):

Actually, so many, I feel like every single day I'd be like, "Oh, my gosh, there's some new issue coming up." One time my charms weren't coming in from overseas, I had no product. I had a big order that was going to cancel. And actually Sarah was friends with them and she contacted them. She goes, "Can you please take my friends, keep her order, don't don't bail on her. Trust me, she's reliable, she's good for it." And they kept the order and they ended up reordering after that.

Sarah Jenkins (12:47):

[inaudible 00:12:47] saw your product once, they said that customers really like it. For one, I've used tons of products that people give me or say, "Hey, try this," and I'll buy things from wherever. I just continue to buy your Kini Bands because they work so well in my hair. And I have three daughters, so they work really well in our hair. We just keep buying them like, "These are great, I'm going to keep buying them." So when you have a customer, if you have a great product, it continues.

Joanna Kinsman (13:06):

And I know that Sarah loves them because even when I sneak up on her out of the blue and show up at lunch, and she doesn't even know I'm going to be there, then I see she's still wearing my Kini Bands.

Sarah Jenkins (13:17):

They're the only hair things I have to be honest. They're the only ones I have because I like them so much, I don't want to go other places.

AJ Roberts (13:25):

Yeah. The key point there is you have a great product and people use it, and when they use something and they need more of them, they need more of them. And it's one of those things that I think that that's the other piece of success that most people... You can learn the marketing and sales, but if the product isn't good, all you're ever going to be doing is marketing and sales. When you have a great product, the marketing and sales can launch that, but after a while, the product has its own life, and then you get to focus on those other things. But what's interesting is I think as you tell the story of Sarah and you talk about how you approach stuff, there really is that personal touch. And so even though you're a remote business, in a sense, like you are not in the same city as most of your clients, the reality is is you have that personal touch and like you say, issues came up, but you're able to address those and work with those.

(14:15):

How do you, with those larger accounts, right? Obviously like you said, small slips through the crack cracks and oftentimes, especially as a female business owner, I imagine you couldn't be brushed aside like, oh, it doesn't matter, it's only a couple thousand dollars of order. But to you, that could be the difference between keeping the doors open for another 30 days. So how do you deal with those interactions so that your business can survive knowing that, you mentioned Billabong, that's a hundred and hundred millions of dollars company, why would they worry about you? And you've got to... It's important for you, not for them, but for you. So how do you manage those relationships with them to make sure that you're continuing on and that they are treating you fairly?

Joanna Kinsman (15:01):

I have to say, I have been really fortunate with being treated with a lot of grace when it comes to these large businesses. So I can't really say that I have too many, really any complaints that... I felt grateful to get into there. They did always pay. I've got my email system too, where I can send out my mass emails to remind people to pay their invoices and all that. So I know that that can really make or break a company. I'm getting into some of these, I don't want to say Nordstrom or, I mean, you've got to be able to fund all of that, and those can oftentimes be 90-day terms. So yeah, that can be pretty detrimental. I, for one, haven't had to deal with that just yet. But factoring is something where I had this one big, large, it was like $200,000 order, and I have to fund all the creation of all that upfront, but using factoring was a huge game changer for me.

AJ Roberts (16:06):

What is that?

Joanna Kinsman (16:07):

So they look at your purchase order, and then they're able to provide enough money to actually create it, and then they get paid once the invoice gets paid. And so those funds say, go to them, and then they distribute the funds back to you.

Sarah Jenkins (16:23):

That seems complicated.

Joanna Kinsman (16:25):

It is, but it's my only way.

Sarah Jenkins (16:27):

That's what you do.

Joanna Kinsman (16:28):

Yeah. Yes, it's always everything's figured out of all, I guess.

AJ Roberts (16:32):

Yeah, I guess as you go along, you learn these kind of things and you have to keep striving forward. I think one of the beauties, knowing you I have an advantage, but one of the beautiful things about it is there's a lot you don't know, so you kind of go in blind. If you knew everything you know now, I would imagine you might not have gone forward with it, right?

Joanna Kinsman (16:53):

Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

AJ Roberts (16:55):

Yeah. So on that sense, how do you navigate your emotions and the ups and downs and things like that? You mentioned your charms didn't come in and obviously you could have supply issues, you could have where machines break down and things like that. So just in general, how do you manage all of that stress and the team and all of those fun things that come with owning a business?

Joanna Kinsman (17:19):

Oh, man, I used to melt down. It was the end of the world, like a teenager going through their first breakup or something. But then just like moving forward, you start to realize what you need will show up and just trusting the whole process and the universe, and I really do believe that. So now instead of getting down, I'm like, I do consider myself to be pretty resilient because I feel like I have seen it all and hit a lot of highs and lows. So just understanding that it does work out. So-

Sarah Jenkins (17:50):

It works out.

Joanna Kinsman (17:50):

It does.

AJ Roberts (17:54):

So one of the things [inaudible 00:17:56]-

Joanna Kinsman (17:55):

Magic.

AJ Roberts (17:56):

... every influencer or everyone who's building a brand always thinks about adding merch and whether it's free t-shirts or whether it's that. Is that a good idea? Should people be adding merch or...

Joanna Kinsman (18:06):

Yes, and that's what I love too, because we do our own in-house embroidery is saying, I'm like, "Make one hat, let's just make one and see if it sells." So being able to support these small businesses who sometimes think that they need to invest a lot of money into merch, I'm like, "I don't want you to get something if it's not going to move." So I'm happy to just focus on the small orders and help these new smaller brands and everything. So it's so fun to get creative with that. So I've really, really been enjoying that part of it.

AJ Roberts (18:38):

Have you worked with any companies that are kind of surprised when they've added merchant, like how well it moves? Because I've been to the barber shop and there's a hat and a t-shirt at the barbers, and I'm thinking to myself-

Sarah Jenkins (18:48):

Who buys that?

AJ Roberts (18:48):

... "I'm not going to buy that." But then I look over and the guy next to me is wearing it, and I'm like, "Well, someone is in and out [inaudible 00:18:54] t-shirts. People buy that." You see it all the time. It's like walking advertisements. So I can't really think of a business that couldn't have that, but a lot of businesses, like a hairdresser wouldn't be like, "Oh, yeah, people would wear my brand," but they do.

Sarah Jenkins (19:07):

[inaudible 00:19:08] totally wear [inaudible 00:19:08] your hats for this podcast.

Joanna Kinsman (19:08):

Oh, yeah.

AJ Roberts (19:09):

Oh, yeah. Sitting over there.

Sarah Jenkins (19:11):

I mean-

Joanna Kinsman (19:11):

We're blowing it right now.

Sarah Jenkins (19:11):

[inaudible 00:19:12] really good today. So no, maybe next time.

AJ Roberts (19:12):

Yeah, poor branding on our part, right?

Sarah Jenkins (19:17):

Yeah, right.

AJ Roberts (19:18):

But yeah, is there any brands that have been surprised like, they've said, "Okay, we'll try it," and then it's really moved and they've come back and put bigger orders in and things like that?

Joanna Kinsman (19:28):

Yeah, I do see that a lot. And so they just trying to support that, and I feel like, I'm not pushy in my sales, but I'm always like I'm like, "You guys need hats. You need merch." And putting it up online for them, it's interesting because people can be pretty conservative in their orders. So yeah, it's fun to get the quick reorders and that you're helping them to generate more revenue too. So yeah, it's fun.

Sarah Jenkins (19:56):

I know one of your favorites was that studio that has a franchise, so now you've got a franchise order, so now you have to fulfill it for all of the US. That must be super hard.

Joanna Kinsman (20:05):

Yeah, but it's great. I mean, just had that one logo over and over and over again, that's-

Sarah Jenkins (20:11):

I liked it.

Joanna Kinsman (20:11):

Yeah.

AJ Roberts (20:11):

That's really cool. With that kind of retail you're mentioning, how do you approach these brands? Is it the same thing, just door to door going in and being like, "Hey, you guys should have merch"? Is that kind of the same approach there?

Joanna Kinsman (20:27):

I do mostly the same way that I grew Kini Bands, so going with a cold list oftentimes, and then following up with the warm and hot leads, especially around here, I do have a lot of word of mouth customers to local businesses, so very fortunate to connect, say with one friend who owns a couple of restaurants. Then next thing I know then their friends are asking. So that's been cool to just watch it grow this ripple effect.

AJ Roberts (20:57):

That's very cool. What's been the hardest part of the business?

Joanna Kinsman (21:04):

The hardest part for me is still figuring out how to scale. And I would say managing people too. I'm not a people manager, but I do pride myself in having my workspace, be a place where people do want to come in and be there and feel comfortable. But when it comes to a lot of the operations stuff, I'm not the best at it. So right now I'm trying to find the right person to put into place there.

AJ Roberts (21:34):

We know all about how important offices, right?

Sarah Jenkins (21:36):

I mean, I did okay, but then I got professional and hired people. So for that new things like laws and how to do things better.

AJ Roberts (21:45):

Systems and processes.

Joanna Kinsman (21:46):

Always learning.

Sarah Jenkins (21:46):

Systems and processes. Yeah. Yes.

AJ Roberts (21:47):

It's crazy that some people enjoy that stuff, but I think for a creator, that's one of the most important people you can have on your team, because if you're like me, you have a ton of ideas and it's like you can't execute all your ideas. I know you have a ton of ideas, there's a million things you want to do, and you see stuff all the time. And when you see stuff, it's like, "Ooh, how can [inaudible 00:22:06]?"

Sarah Jenkins (22:05):

I could do that.

AJ Roberts (22:07):

So that's something that is super important I think for most creators. And so I think that I know you've gone through a few different people when moving forward, but with that, how do you process these ideas? Obviously you probably see trends and you see things and it's like, "Oh, we could be doing this, or we could be getting into that." Like-

Sarah Jenkins (22:26):

She jumped in the mask one really well.

Joanna Kinsman (22:28):

Yeah. I was resistant to the mask thing. I was like, "No, this will be over soon." And I took me a while to-

Sarah Jenkins (22:35):

It wasn't.

Joanna Kinsman (22:36):

Yeah. But I'm trying to think-

Sarah Jenkins (22:42):

Other creatives, other ways of moving things forward or changing directions.

AJ Roberts (22:47):

Did you have a system or a process you go through? Obviously you went from bikinis to Kini Bands to, you had tops and jackets, and that's what you're working with other people. How do you decide what you're going to add and what you're not going to add?

Joanna Kinsman (23:03):

Yeah, and it's nice because I can test things out with small, like this half for instance, I'm like, "Okay, let me just get one and try it out, see what the response is." So where you get people, I would say, "Oh, where can I get one of those?" I'm like, "Ding. All right." So I feel like I've always been pretty good at spotting trends and knowing what will sell. And that's why I have done well with the say embroidery and getting into working, especially fitness studios. So this is my new, I don't want to say it's a shiny object, my new passion project is focusing on the retail area of fitness studios. So where they can, normally you walk in, you see t-shirts and water bottles. So making it more of a boutique experience, and so helping these studios to generate more revenue that way. But again, just not making them commit to a ton of merch to say, "Hey, just try three and see how it goes."

AJ Roberts (24:05):

Well, I love that because whenever services is, "How can we improve this website?" It's like, "Well, you should test." The answer is always test.

Sarah Jenkins (24:13):

[inaudible 00:24:14] do this differently.

AJ Roberts (24:14):

Should I do this or should I? Yes.

Sarah Jenkins (24:15):

Yes.

AJ Roberts (24:16):

Test. So I just-

Joanna Kinsman (24:17):

All digital mock-ups and Canva's like my absolute best friend other than Sarah.

AJ Roberts (24:22):

Yeah, and I-

Sarah Jenkins (24:24):

Right. You have to say that.

AJ Roberts (24:24):

... and I think that [inaudible 00:24:25], you said, you're hesitant with the masks, but it's that mind going, okay, is this going to last? Is it worth the investment? That cautiousness is a great skillset set to have because there is something to being first to market, but there's a lot of first that don't end up being the best.

Sarah Jenkins (24:42):

[inaudible 00:24:43].

AJ Roberts (24:43):

Apple wasn't the first smartphone, but it arguably became the most dominant. And so being first doesn't always mean that there's an advantage to that. Sometimes it's better to sit back, make sure there's an adoption, and make sure it actually is going to happen, and then do it better than everybody else, which I've seen you do.

Joanna Kinsman (25:01):

Well, I think what's nice with what I am doing is that we can always create one item or order one. So I've got my sourcing, I've got my sewing contract team. I mean, when I started Kini Bands, I brought fabric to my seamstress. I was like, "I want to try this. Can you just make five of these? Let's just test." So it started there. So being able to be very agile and then went from there. These were all, you used to be handmade one at a time.

Sarah Jenkins (25:30):

No, I know. I remember we were cutting fabrics.

Joanna Kinsman (25:32):

Yep. Yes.

Sarah Jenkins (25:34):

I asked you to come over and hang out with me one time. I had the girls by myself. I'm like, "Hey, let's just hang out. I've got the two little girls with me and we're doing nothing. Let's watch a movie." She goes, "I have to work." I was like, "Great, bring it. My girls know how to use scissors. We can tie knots and threads." And it was pretty awesome. We did so many that day. I'm glad it helped you. There's no shortage with girls with hair that need ponytails. Never. I went to a restaurant where they gave us these aprons for the hotpot and they gave us hair things for the girls. I was like, "What?" [inaudible 00:26:00], "Well, you're going to need it." I'm like, "Okay."

AJ Roberts (26:03):

That's a great point.

Joanna Kinsman (26:05):

Humble beginnings.

AJ Roberts (26:06):

Maybe we could talk a little bit about, so you mentioned there about how you were originally cutting them yourself, but then you had a seamstress. I think one of the hardest things for creators is that we often have a skillset. So we're creative, but then out of necessity in the beginning, we'll learn the skill, whether that's sewing or from my way, it was a copywriting, I learned copywriting-

Sarah Jenkins (26:28):

Accounting.

AJ Roberts (26:30):

... but at some point you have to say, okay, if I'm going to run a business, I can't be the one cutting and making all, you might do the first one. But beyond that, you know, have to have a team. So how did you transition that for you? Because especially when you're a small business... A lot of companies we've worked with, and back when I was in fitness, same thing. Gym owners would do the training and it was like, well, I can't afford to hire someone else, but I can't grow my business if I don't. So how was that transition for you, and how did you navigate that mentally? Because it's the first big shift where you have to say, okay, I need to let something go in order to grow.

Joanna Kinsman (27:08):

Yeah, yeah. So what's interesting is I still remember a friend saying to me that traveling actually will help your business and getting away from it.

AJ Roberts (27:16):

Oh, we know you like to travel.

Joanna Kinsman (27:19):

I love that fun. So I was actually going to Greece and so I had to figure out-

Sarah Jenkins (27:25):

Greece.

Joanna Kinsman (27:27):

... I was going with friends, but it was during the summer and now it's my busiest time for Kini Bands. So I had to figure out how that was going to work. So just the fact that I had a short amount of time, a couple of weeks to say, "Okay, let's put this person in place. Let's switch from the seamstress, find a contract team, and this is how it's all going to work out." And it wasn't perfect, but it did. And so I've been working with that team ever since. But yeah, I still remember I'm being on Sarah's floor, tagging products in her living room, being with my seamstress where I was cutting the strings and feeding the charms, and she's sewing them, hand them back to me. I'm cutting them, tagging them, bagging. I slept on her couch before. Go up to LA get more fabric and all that. So fortunately I'm not doing that anymore.

AJ Roberts (28:15):

Yeah. Well, I think it's important to share because I think that that's, I don't know where this has come from or why it's happened, but a lot of people don't see the work that goes in to get to where you are. And so they start their business journey and they compare themselves to someone like you. Well, she's traveling all the time and she's doing this and she's doing that. And they don't-

Sarah Jenkins (28:35):

Must be easy.

AJ Roberts (28:36):

... Yeah, and they don't want to spend the time on someone's couch or move back home to save money. They want the result without the work. That's kind of an unfortunate truth of a lot of society today. And so I think it's important you share that stuff because I think that if you are a creator, especially if you're young and you have these, I want to do something big, you have to understand that there's going to be a phase, usually a decade. Some people manage not to need that long, but usually a decade of just hard work and-

Sarah Jenkins (29:10):

Sacrifice.

AJ Roberts (29:11):

... sacrifice and grind. And I think it's so important to share those stories, share about how the kids were cutting, all that stuff, because most people don't know about that stuff because it's not what people share on social media. It's not what you show because where you are now is very different than where you were back then. And we didn't have social media when we were doing all of this. We've got one picture of us working around a kitchen table like-

Sarah Jenkins (29:36):

One.

Joanna Kinsman (29:36):

Oh, my gosh, so true.

Sarah Jenkins (29:36):

[inaudible 00:29:36] 15 years.

AJ Roberts (29:36):

Yeah. And then when you were working, we had the house that was the office. We had a house as the office-

Sarah Jenkins (29:47):

We're more photogenic now.

AJ Roberts (29:49):

... We have 20 people [inaudible 00:29:50], but we have-

Joanna Kinsman (29:50):

We're only getting better.

AJ Roberts (29:50):

... There was no social media. So it's like we showed up to work, we worked-

Sarah Jenkins (29:53):

Yeah, why would you take a picture?

AJ Roberts (29:55):

... But people don't see that stuff. And I think that's so important. Now, that you are a business owner, how do you apply those marketing and sales lessons that you learned in the beginning? How is that carried over from the online world to an actual e-com store and retail stores and now mentoring other people too?

Joanna Kinsman (30:25):

It's funny because I feel like you guys brought me up and raised me in marketing, but still, I was like, I know what to do, but I'm not the greatest at marketing my own products.

Sarah Jenkins (30:38):

I disagree. You've got that personal touch that everybody adores and you've got a great product. You're like, "Hey, look at my great product." And you truly believe in it. So you believe in the value of what you're giving them, and it's your job to show them, I have this thing of value. You're going to need this. You're going to want this. And that allows you to be free flowing with, "Hey, look what I have for you," because you have a great product.

Joanna Kinsman (30:56):

Yeah. I think I'd still like that in person touch and being able to go out and make those connections-

Sarah Jenkins (31:02):

That comes through in your emails too. I've gotten your emails and I'm like, "Oh, yeah, I got to reorder."

Joanna Kinsman (31:05):

Thank you. Thank you.

AJ Roberts (31:06):

Yeah, that confidence comes through and it's such... Again, very few people are willing to pick up the phone nowadays. And we've even worked with companies that we've bought in to do save a sale and stuff like that. And they just wanted a text message. Very few people want to just pick up the phone because very few people will pick up the phone and speak back to them, right? But when you do get someone on the phone, the conversation is that much more fruitful. So that's super interesting.

Joanna Kinsman (31:37):

Yeah. Getting good at phone, just sales and conversations and just being comfortable with it was such a great skill that I learned in one of the last jobs that I had. In golf marketing, I was calling, we had a list of 800 golf courses, and I'm on the phone. At first I'm like, "This is so awkward. I feel awkward." Now, you just get used to it and just practice. And that's really been such a big difference maker for me.

AJ Roberts (32:02):

Yeah, I was just going to ask, were you always confident? Because I think that some people think, well, you're born that way. You're extrovert, you're confident, you like to speak to people. But you just said when you first started you were kind of nervous and-

Joanna Kinsman (32:12):

Because my boss was right there too, I'm like, I don't want to mess up. But now, then it just became so easy and then the directors of golf were calling and maybe he'd answer and then they're like, "Oh, is Joanna around?" So he's like, "Oh, you don't want to talk to me anymore?"

AJ Roberts (32:27):

Yeah. So with that, when you were talking, what was the shift manually from like, oh, I don't want to have to call all these people to... Because there's that level of fear of rejection. They don't want to hear from me, I'm just bugging them. That's what a lot of people think. If they're calling someone, they're just being a nuisance and you want to be a welcome guest. But what was that switch for you? Was it you knew with the numbers as long as you hit enough people that you would get the right people in the end? Or was there something else that changed in terms of just giving you that confidence to continue to reach out to more and more people?

Joanna Kinsman (33:00):

Yeah, I think it's to Sarah's point that you're offering a product that they will gain value from so that you know that already going into it. But then once you see seeing the reorders too, you're like, okay, this works and seeing, okay, I'm helping them. They're making more money because of us. And that feels really good. Also, knowing we had, is it risk mitigators, that Andy mentored me for a long time, and so it was from my hair accessories coming up with a guarantee, "Hey, if you don't sell through these buy X date, I'll take them back, I'll exchange them-

Sarah Jenkins (33:38):

Buy back.

Joanna Kinsman (33:38):

... buy back, anything." And nobody ever even took me up on it, but they felt confident. I felt confident knowing that I could sell them to anybody else. So that's fun. Actually made some really cool just personal relationships with these buyers and owners of all these retail locations. Even all over the world actually, we've gotten into a few places overseas. So it's fun.

Sarah Jenkins (34:00):

But that speaks the end of the value of your product. If you say, "I'll buy back what doesn't sell, you know it will sell." Just give one or two customers a chance to use it. They'll come back and buy more.

Joanna Kinsman (34:07):

Exactly.

AJ Roberts (34:08):

It's that money back guarantee. And it's funny because they say, you can give money back guarantees for a year. You can just say, if you don't use it, it doesn't work. You've got 12 months to figure it out. And like you said, nobody's ever called you on it because you [inaudible 00:34:22]-

Sarah Jenkins (34:21):

Don't think diet pills should have that guarantee.

AJ Roberts (34:25):

No, definitely. Well, no, but the interesting thing is some of the most successful have a double your money back guarantee.

Sarah Jenkins (34:29):

Oh, I want those.

AJ Roberts (34:30):

Because what they've learned is that most people fail because they don't actually take the pills.

Sarah Jenkins (34:40):

Oh, I'd love to take a pill and have it work. That's all they're running to get me.

AJ Roberts (34:40):

So if you take the pills and do what we tell you to do and you don't get results, well, that means they actually have to take the pills, follow the diet, and do the workouts-

Sarah Jenkins (34:47):

Then they also have to run, or you got me there.

AJ Roberts (34:50):

... But if they don't do that, they're not going to claim to the double your money back. But it's that in the beginning, removing the risk, removing the risk in their mind. Like they've never heard of Kini Bands before probably, no offense, but we can be famous in our world. But then you walk outside and nobody has a clue who you are. So you're calling up big companies, they don't know Joann, they don't know Kini Bands. But when you put something like that, it's a risk reversal, like no brainer. It's like, "Well, what do we have to lose? What do we have to lose?" And that's the conversation you want in any conversation, no matter what you're selling is you want the person on there, "Well, I got nothing to lose here. I only have something to gain." So it's super interesting you bring that in because it kind of adds to why you were able to get into retail, because you made it so that there was no risk on their path.

Sarah Jenkins (35:37):

There's no reason to say no. None.

AJ Roberts (35:39):

Yeah. And that's what a great offer always has that, so it's super, super cool. With the relationships that you have built, like you say, it's kind of led to other things. Is there any relationships that in the beginning just could it be anyone that have led to something that you could never have imagined?

Joanna Kinsman (36:06):

So in my embroidery business, it's interesting looking back at, okay, I have my biggest customer right now is a new company called Longball and it's a brand of alcohol.

Sarah Jenkins (36:19):

[inaudible 00:36:19]. That's awesome.

Joanna Kinsman (36:20):

And yeah, it's so good. It's an incredible new product. It's like a golf base and they've been sending me business, but the reason that I got linked up with them is because one of my best friends dated someone who was part of that company and then they met because he was roommates with a friend of mine. And so just all these weird little tie-ins like, oh, if this person hadn't gotten a room on Craigslist with this, then I wouldn't have met this person and that person. So just funny to see how the one little thing makes such a big difference.

Sarah Jenkins (36:53):

It's a small world.

Joanna Kinsman (36:53):

It really is.

Sarah Jenkins (36:55):

I always told Andy, I was like, "If it wasn't for my first husband or whatever, I might not have met you." And he's like, "Shh! We always would've found each other." I was like, "Aw, probably not though."

Joanna Kinsman (37:04):

I'm sure you would've figured out.

AJ Roberts (37:06):

What are some of the biggest shifts in your business? Not obviously moving to different products and things like that, but as a business, how you operate, how you think, what are some of the biggest shifts that have happened over the years for you?

Joanna Kinsman (37:21):

I think one of them going back to not having your emotions tied into the ups and downs, I would say definitely celebrating the wins, but not getting so bent out of shape over the losses, knowing that it'll come back around. So just trusting in the process.

AJ Roberts (37:41):

Yeah, yeah. That's great. What does the future look like for you in your mind?

Sarah Jenkins (37:47):

Ooh, great question.

Joanna Kinsman (37:48):

Whoo! I'm very excited about systems and processes that it just keeps coming up for me. So okay, finally, because I am a creator-

AJ Roberts (38:00):

[inaudible 00:37:59]. I'm very excited about systems and [inaudible 00:38:01].

Joanna Kinsman (38:00):

I am. Getting that into place because-

Sarah Jenkins (38:02):

I'm terrible.

Joanna Kinsman (38:04):

... When it's done. And because the goal is to have Kini Bands fully running on its own to have Kini Supply Co. with the embroidery and screen print running on its own. And I really want to be able to help other product owners to get their product out into retail locations or help them create their products. So just being able to help more people. And if I'm working behind a computer trying to do everything like we talked about, then I can't do that. So-

Sarah Jenkins (38:35):

You want to work on your business, not in your business.

Joanna Kinsman (38:36):

Exactly, yes.

Sarah Jenkins (38:37):

It's a growing theme for us with our people that we've talked to are paid to create, everyone's paid to create something, whether you're a doctor and you're paid to create health and prescriptions or you're us, you're paid to create some marketing or some products at Kini Band or something. But everyone's paid to create something and usually we all walk into it with the idea that we're going to help somebody. Doctors want to help the sick and personal trainers want to help get you fit and feel better and look better. But then it turns into a business. So you come from the same spot, you wanted to help people with something and now it's just growing.

Joanna Kinsman (39:03):

Yeah, I do have to take a step back sometimes when I think about just my revenue and my life is it supported by people who are willing to part with their money for something that I've created. And that's a really cool thought and I kind of humbling.

Sarah Jenkins (39:20):

Yep. Very humbling.

Joanna Kinsman (39:21):

So that's why I love the Paid to Create just the name of it too, and it really resonates.

AJ Roberts (39:26):

With scale into retail, which is your real passion, helping others, you said. When brands come to you, what are some of their challenges that you see that is a reason that they haven't been able to break into retail yet?

Joanna Kinsman (39:42):

Number one, definitely not knowing how to generate their lists and then once they have a list, they'll kind of some man-made or one at a time on a Google Drive, on a spreadsheet, color coded and everything. So again, figuring out who their list is to contact and then for them to figure out how to be reaching out using a CRM, following up. I had actually a brand call me the other day like, "Hey, we want to see about getting into the boutique that I used to have." And I was like, "Listen guys, you would save a lot of time if you would email people first, and then just reach out to the people that express interest because you can't call everyone." So I love helping people getting into the retail locations because of that. It was such a foreign concept to me when I was starting in on swimwear. So then now being able to have this process, it's fun to share that.

AJ Roberts (40:45):

So the biggest thing is just people don't have good lists. They don't know who they should be contacting, who's the right fit. Now, is that-

Joanna Kinsman (40:52):

And a system for following up with them too.

AJ Roberts (40:53):

... is that kind of, because they don't know what they don't know, but it sounds like they're not doing enough research, they're just kind of throwing something out there.

Joanna Kinsman (41:05):

Yeah, I think you almost don't realize how big the world is until you're like, "Okay, I'm going to build a list of all the boutiques that I can contact." And then you're like, "It's a lot of work." But virtual assistants have been, I mean, the most amazing thing. And I mean, I learned that through marketing.

Sarah Jenkins (41:21):

I super believe in them.

Joanna Kinsman (41:23):

They're incredible. So maybe I didn't-

Sarah Jenkins (41:27):

And I can use AI, all the boutiques in San Diego and AI will pull up.

Joanna Kinsman (41:31):

Yeah, yeah, it's amazing. And so now it's nice that can get the leads, dump them in my CRM, and then create that process from there.

Sarah Jenkins (41:39):

[inaudible 00:41:40].

Joanna Kinsman (41:39):

Yes.

AJ Roberts (41:40):

Yeah. So that's the key. So if I was trying to get something to rescale, first thing is create the list, then create a powerful email with the risk reversal in there, or is the email just to see if there's interest? What does that look like when you first contact them? Because that's the hardest thing. They got to see the subject, they got to open it, and then they've got to respond. We need them to do three things before we can have a phone call.

Sarah Jenkins (42:03):

[inaudible 00:42:03] marketing.

Joanna Kinsman (42:04):

Yes. And that's all stuff that I've learned-

Sarah Jenkins (42:07):

You do the same thing.

Joanna Kinsman (42:07):

... learned from you guys as I've... So my first email, and I would think this is really important, is not cramming really any information down their throats and just saying, "Hey, I've got this product. I think this would be a great fit for you guys. Do you mind if I send some info to you to see if you think so as well?" So that then it's not rude, they like, and I've even had people respond and say, "Thank you for asking." I mean, granted you guys, if they don't respond, then I will follow up with an email later and send them information. But just like tiptoeing and-

Sarah Jenkins (42:43):

Some of that answers now it's warm, now it's not cold.

Joanna Kinsman (42:46):

Yes, exactly. And then just developing those relationships from there and then one, get the sale and the reorder and then asking them at the end of all of that if they've known anybody else that would benefit from these products.

AJ Roberts (43:01):

I love that because I'm not a big cold email fan and I always for the person to want you to email them, I found that to be easier. And so we do things to do that. But being in the position I am, I get a lot of cold emails every day, three or four, five of cold emails, and I'll read the emails and usually it's like, we think there might be something between us, we would love to have a conversation to explore-

Sarah Jenkins (43:27):

Get together.

AJ Roberts (43:27):

... or are you available at this time for us to give you a demo?

Sarah Jenkins (43:32):

No.

AJ Roberts (43:32):

... And I always think to myself, I never respond. I always feel like I should give them a lesson, but I never do because I don't like to give feedback If it's not [inaudible 00:43:42].

Joanna Kinsman (43:42):

Unsolicited. Yeah.

Sarah Jenkins (43:43):

I've actually it once. I've done it once, gave feedback and yelled at somebody back.

AJ Roberts (43:46):

But I always think to myself, if you had just gone to our website and spent half an hour going through and figured out how you actually could work with us and then wrote me an email saying, "I think we can do this, this and this, would you be open to that conversation?" I'm more likely to want to respond because I feel like you've actually done something up front and there's a respect there. I like the way you're doing it, because it's basically saying, "Hey, I know you're busy, but I would like to send you some stuff. Is that cool?" It's like you're leading with respect. And I think that that is what's missing a lot when the cold emails I get, it's like sometimes they don't even have my name right. And they're like, "Are you the right person?" And it's like, surely you could do some research here.

(44:32):

Surely there's a way for you to know if I'm the right person. Or they're just praying and hoping and then they'll follow up, "Did you get my last email?" I was like, "Yeah, I did obviously, like you know because you have a tracker that knows that I opened it." But it's super interesting because I think that Salesforce built their business off of cold email, but there's ways to do it and then there's ways not to do it. And I don't see many people doing it right. So that's why I kind of wanted to keep coming back to that and ask you about the process because I just think that people here like, oh, I got a cold email. And then they'll be sending their entire product list and everything like that. It's like that's not how you start a conversation. And I think that a lot of that comes down to just like how would you start a conversation with someone at a bar or something like that.

Sarah Jenkins (45:20):

Like a real person. We're people.

AJ Roberts (45:22):

Yeah, exactly.

Sarah Jenkins (45:23):

We're companies, we're people. People like to put their money where their feelings are, and if they feel like they're connecting with a person, it works out much better.

Joanna Kinsman (45:29):

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, they write it as if you're... If Sarah's on my email list, then I want her to think that I wrote that just to her.

Sarah Jenkins (45:37):

Hey, girl.

Joanna Kinsman (45:37):

Yeah.

Sarah Jenkins (45:37):

Yeah.

AJ Roberts (45:42):

Yeah. You have so many different things you're juggling. How do you prioritize? How do you manage that? Do you?

Joanna Kinsman (45:51):

Probably not as well as I should, I'm sure. But just getting the right people into place. And so just starting to practice allocating certain hours of the day for certain things and setting myself timers, making sure I'm not going down too much of a rabbit hole. So just giving each business some attention during that day or each day. And yeah, I'm starting to see already sort of a difference. And it keeps me from getting so stressed that I used to, I'd [inaudible 00:46:25] open my computer, I'm like, "Hmm. What do I do today?" So having more of a plan helps.

Sarah Jenkins (46:31):

I do that too. I have my virtual assistant, she'll goes through my emails and she's like, "Okay, here's the three things that you have to do today. You have to do them. Okay, here's the other two or three things. If you're feeling ambitious, you need to do by the end of the week, so you should probably do them today if you can. And then here are the things that are waiting a week, but if you're extra awesome, maybe you get those done too." So then I'm like, "Okay, I have to do this for you right now. So I prioritize those to make sure those get done." I'm sure you do the same thing with your orders. What has to be shipped out by Friday, I have to make sure and get this shit done today for this thing.

Joanna Kinsman (46:57):

Yeah, absolutely. Unfortunately, I've got girls at the office that are filling the orders and everything like that, but-

Sarah Jenkins (47:02):

Great.

Joanna Kinsman (47:03):

Yeah. Yes.

AJ Roberts (47:04):

Well, you mentioned earlier you're not the best manager of people, right? I'm the same way. I'm a good leader, but when it comes to day-to-day managing, I have a lot of faith in people that like, "Hey, you're going to do the job that I've hired you to do." But as I've learned-

Sarah Jenkins (47:17):

That's ambitious.

AJ Roberts (47:18):

... and I know that you've learned that, that's a very high expectation to put on people because people have different personalities and some people need checklists and that's how they operate. And if they don't have that where I'm like, I'm not going to create that for you, but have you found good people? And then what have you learned over your time as an employer about nurturing those relationships? Because you mentioned earlier your goal is if they have a dream, you want to help them. But obviously a lot of that doesn't happen in the beginning. So how is that as a manager of people, even though you wouldn't call, how has that changed and how do you find good people and what have you found that actually attracts great talent but also keeps it?

Joanna Kinsman (48:02):

First and foremost, finding a person who is as passionate, maybe even more than you are about these products. So I say the girl who mostly runs my office, I was really fortunate to just meet her through friends. And actually, it's funny, it was the Kartra booth where we had our embroidery machine and I needed help. I'm posting on Instagram, "Hey, does anyone have free time this weekend to learn how to use an embroidery machine and do this at an event?" And she stepped in.

Sarah Jenkins (48:35):

Oh, yeah, she did great. We did the cards, your hats and event. They're beautiful.

Joanna Kinsman (48:37):

Yes. Yeah, thank you. And that was such a cool opportunity. So then she ended up, I guess she wasn't working too much at the time, but then she's like, "Hey, actually I really enjoyed doing this. Do you need more help?" And it was just the timing has just always worked out. So she hopped in and some people are just, I'm like, "Man, you're so damn smart."

Sarah Jenkins (49:00):

The timing didn't just work out because you posted about it. You put on Instagram, "Would anyone like to learn embroidery?" So you obviously sparked an interest in her. Maybe she did it as a kid or something. You still made it happen. It did just work out. But you did take the action steps to make it.

Joanna Kinsman (49:13):

Yes. Yeah, absolutely. But I mean, so posting on even just... I like word of mouth referrals. So that's been actually really... I'm always asking like, "Hey, do you know someone who can help me with this, that? We're looking to hire one or two more people right now."

Sarah Jenkins (49:30):

Joanna is an incredible connector. That's one of her other skills besides her products. She's an incredible connector.

Joanna Kinsman (49:34):

Thank you.

AJ Roberts (49:36):

I think people like listening as a creator, if you are a natural networker, right?

Sarah Jenkins (49:40):

Natural networker.

AJ Roberts (49:42):

Like that's kind of [inaudible 00:49:42]-

Sarah Jenkins (49:42):

Network is a bad name unless you do it right.

AJ Roberts (49:43):

Right, right.

Joanna Kinsman (49:43):

Yeah. I love connecting people. Thanks for that.

AJ Roberts (49:46):

It seems like passion and personality are two things that have worked really, really good for you with finding people who have the passion, but they also have that personality. And it's interesting because when I interview people, I would always ask, what's the last book they've read? Like if marketing position, "What's the last marketing book you read?" Because to me, if they're not studying and learning, they're not passionate. So I always-

Sarah Jenkins (50:12):

No, that's hurtful.

AJ Roberts (50:12):

Well-

Sarah Jenkins (50:12):

I'm just kidding.

AJ Roberts (50:13):

... a lot of people when they go, they have a skill set. You go to college. A doctor can go through all of that, become a doctor, and then they have to do some things to keep their license. But there's other doctors who are literally reading the cutting edge science. It separates the two. And I don't think a lot of people fully grasp that in the workplace there's like levels, just because you have a qualification or you're a fashion designer, there's levels to that. There's fashion designers, and then there's the brands that everybody knows and there's levels and there's different things. And each thing takes a different skillset, a different commitment and different things like that.

(50:59):

But passion seems to be the thing that when you find people with passion, it doesn't really matter where they start. They find the right positions. And we've had people go from customer support agents to rock stars on the marketing team and managers and things like that. And I think that that's just such an interesting thing because I think when people look for new hires, they always want to look at qualifications and credentials and the other side of what makes those qualified credentials actually mean something is what they're doing with it. [inaudible 00:51:30].

Sarah Jenkins (51:30):

Well, I like to say I look at your resume, that's great and I like to see what you've done, but I'm really interested in what you're going to do for me in the future. What you've done is probably great, and that will show me if you can even reach part of what I need. But I look for hires when I've done, some of our best hires were people that have done just a little bit in this space we're trying to put them in but they're so passionate about it that they just excelled and grow. Now they're directors managing teams of people because they know what they're doing and they liked doing that thing. So we put that to work.

AJ Roberts (52:01):

And I will say, and you know this is you sometimes have to go through a few bad apples to get those good ones. But I think it's just a reality. I think it's one of those things, and that's something I wish when I was first getting people into business, is that people would share just the reality of the things that are going to happen. Like you're going to have great years, you're going to have bad years. You're going to have-

Sarah Jenkins (52:20):

You're going to be on the couch.

AJ Roberts (52:21):

... you're going to have good cash flow. You're going to have bad cash flow. You have good employees or bad employees, and you're going to think something's going to be a home run and it's not. Then you're going to think something else. You're not even going to think about Kini Bands becomes [inaudible 00:52:32]-

Sarah Jenkins (52:32):

Those furs were a home run for me, and I love them. She did this really cool white, black fur, it's a wallet shawl that was fur. And I feel like six of them now. I'm like, I love them. I use them a couple times when I don't want to bring a purse to put your credit card and your little phone and your wallet. And she doesn't highlight them so I don't know if they did that. Well, maybe it was summer where San Diego.

Joanna Kinsman (52:52):

We need to photograph them better. That's the whole other thing.

Sarah Jenkins (52:55):

But man, so wasn't always the winner, but I like them.

Joanna Kinsman (52:58):

Andy was very passionate about that, felt very strongly about that one product. And that's another brand or product that we need to bring back to life.

Sarah Jenkins (53:10):

[inaudible 00:53:08], you know what, you do, you move on to the next thing that worked. These wallets didn't take off, but the mask did. So you keep moving.

AJ Roberts (53:16):

Mentioned photography there, and I feel like there's probably quite a few things that you feel are essential to building a good fashion brand. For someone who's maybe looking to start their own. What are those essentials that separate? Because like you said, bad photo is not going to sell a product no matter how good the product is. So do you have some stuff like you would recommend to someone looking into this, like these are the things you need to focus on?

Joanna Kinsman (53:43):

Well, yeah. I mean, product photography is so key and unfortunately, I mean, we're kind of cool. You can take really great photos just with your iPhone.

Sarah Jenkins (53:52):

With your iPhone.

Joanna Kinsman (53:53):

Yeah. And there-

Sarah Jenkins (53:53):

Weird.

Joanna Kinsman (53:53):

... I mean, between Photoshop and Canva, you can do it all yourself. I don't recommend doing it yourself. I recommend finding a graphics person, especially overseas who can edit your photos for you. But even our flat lays right now, our product shots, oftentimes the girls will take them with their phones, send them off to our graphics guy in India, and he adds the shadow and they can add leaves and cute things around them and everything. So just-

Sarah Jenkins (54:23):

As if they were in the jungle.

Joanna Kinsman (54:23):

Exactly, yes, in the wild. So I guess just going back to not needing to spend a ton of money to launch your product. Even when we have our hats, for instance, I get a picture of this hat and then put the logo on it just in Canva, we don't even have to make one. So it is just being agile and you see that if you go on, say Etsy or... A lot of brands, if you actually look at say their merch, they haven't even created that one that's in the photo. So-

Sarah Jenkins (54:58):

No.

Joanna Kinsman (54:58):

Yeah, I know.

AJ Roberts (55:00):

So test your ideas basically. Okay, this is what I want to do. Create the mock-up, make sure it's good, see if you can sell it, and if it sells, then follow that versus spending all that money on create... Because I remember one time hearing a story about an influencer and they had two million followers and they spent all of this money on t-shirts and stuff like that and went live, and they sold two t-shirts and they were like 50,000 in on product. And they're like, "Oh, I can't believe my followers didn't purchase." And I just remember thinking, "Did you even ask if they wanted it?" But what I'm hearing, and especially because of the way we are with digital and everything now, it's like you really don't even have to create the product to test it. You can come up with your design, put it out there, and what you really need to be able to do is get eyeballs on it. That's the thing that's going to make the difference is can we get traffic to see that? Do people purchase it? And if they do, then we go from there.

Joanna Kinsman (56:01):

Yeah, yeah. We made some Kartra mock-ups [inaudible 00:56:05].

AJ Roberts (56:04):

Yes, yeah, we did.

Sarah Jenkins (56:06):

Well, I said, it's not always your great idea that might work. We had this thing for the Kartra officers or whatever, and I was like, "That's a terrible idea." We surveyed the market, we surveyed our customers, our agents, our staff, and everybody loved it. I was like, "Fine." And it's awesome. Now that it's done, I'm like, "Oh, thank God we went that one. Not my idea, because my idea was garbage." But we tested, we asked, we surveyed.

AJ Roberts (56:28):

No. I think sometimes as a creator, you can be attached to ideas too. So by doing that, you got to be able to sell it. You can make it for yourself, but if you can't sell it, then it's not going to be what you move forward with. And seems like that's been a saving grace for you is you've been unattached to one thing. You've kind of, oh, okay, people are saying they want this. I don't necessarily see it, but let's try it. Oh, it's successful, let's double down on it. And it seems to have guided you in a very successful way, and sounds like that's the advice you're giving. But also when you're working with brands, that's what you're doing for them. It's like, well, you don't have to order 20 hats, just order a hat and if it sells, we'll do another one.

Joanna Kinsman (57:10):

Yeah, yeah, I know. I feel that influencer that invested all that money in these shirts, I'm like, is this... I don't want to see that. And so that's like, I'm trying to prevent that-

AJ Roberts (57:19):

It's very cool.

Joanna Kinsman (57:20):

... and support at the same time.

AJ Roberts (57:22):

Is there anything else you'd tell a newbie trying to get into the fashion industry?

Joanna Kinsman (57:26):

The fashion industry specifically, gosh, I mean, I have, not to plug my own services or anything, but I think having any whatever your brand is, add merch and understand that people do want to wear hats and shirts, typically with your logo, start small. But I think just understanding that you couldn't have your product and then these other add-ons, and I mean, it's going to add to your checkout value and everything.

Sarah Jenkins (57:59):

[inaudible 00:58:00].

Joanna Kinsman (58:00):

So yeah, try it out and it doesn't cost a whole lot. So maybe just a couple minutes in Canva.

AJ Roberts (58:06):

Oh, cool. How can people learn more about Joanna and all the different brands you have?

Joanna Kinsman (58:12):

So my website, joannakinsman.com has links to everything that I'm currently working on. And you can find Kini Bands, Kini Supply Co., which is the embroidery and screen printing and scale into retail, which is my consulting business.

AJ Roberts (58:27):

Fantastic. It's been a pleasure having you. Anything else, Sarah?

Sarah Jenkins (58:29):

No, thank you.

AJ Roberts (58:30):

Thank you so much.

Joanna Kinsman (58:31):

Thank you.

AJ Roberts (58:32):

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