014 Profitable Self-Publishing: Cliff Pelloni's Unique Approach to Build Your Brand with a Book

Unlock the transformative power of your own story with publishing expert Cliff Pelloni. In this episode of the Paid to Create Podcast, Cliff discusses the incredible potential of writing and publishing a book. He believes we all have a book within us, waiting to be written. Beyond being a creative pursuit, writing your book can be a game-changer for your business, brand, and even your bank account.

Cliff delves into the advantages of self-publishing, explaining how it offers unparalleled control and flexibility compared to traditional publishing routes. He underlines the significance of a book as a potent marketing tool, capable of establishing your authority and attracting your ideal clients like a magnet.

You’ll also discover proven tips to overcome the common hurdles that stand between you and your author journey. Whether it's lack of time, a disdain for writing, or uncertainty about where to start, Cliff provides practical strategies to navigate these challenges. This episode provides tremendous insights for aspiring authors, filled with motivating quotes that inspire action. Cliff's message is clear: it's time to bring your book out of your head and into the world.

Don't miss this opportunity to harness the power of authorship. Find the confidence to take that leap and unleash the book that's been lingering within you. Because your story is unique, and it's about time the world hears it. 

Listen in, start writing, and transform your life and business. The book is your beginning, the springboard to a much larger journey. Step into the world of authorship and discover the untapped potential that lies within your words. Tune in now and embark on your author journey today!

Transcript

AJ Roberts (00:00:00):

Oh, Cliff, we need your help. What can you do for us?

Cliff Pelloni (00:00:03):

It's my goal and my job really to help people find their story, publish their book, and profit from it. So if you write the book, you've got that built-in authority, and I've never seen a tool work as well for anybody.

Sarah Jenkins (00:00:19):

Welcome to the Paid to Create podcast where we dig into the secret strategies of successful creators making a lucrative living. So sit back, relax, and enjoy the show.

AJ Roberts (00:00:27):

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(00:01:01):

It's made managing my business so much simpler and more affordable. Honestly, I can't recommend Kartra enough. If you're curious, head to paidtocreatepodcast.com\kartra to start your trial. Trust me, you won't regret it.

(00:01:14):

Welcome everybody to the Paid to Create podcast. I'm your host, AJ Roberts and alongside me today is my guest, Cliff Pelloni, who embodies the spirit of storytelling, authorship and entrepreneurial powerness. He's a seasoned expert and he's committed his life to helping people find their unique story, publish their book, and here's the kicker, profit from it. He's worked with Fortune five companies, piano teachers, rock stars, realtors, famous speakers to just the woman next door and Cliff's mission is to ensure that everyone can have access to the transformational power of their own book. Without further ado, let's welcome the man who will help you publish your passion and monetize your message. He's helping me write my book. Cliff, welcome to the show.

Cliff Pelloni (00:02:00):

Hi AJ, and thank you for that tremendous introduction.

AJ Roberts (00:02:04):

We've known each other for a while, and I'm excited to dig in and tell your story today, and get into kind of the book business, some thoughts around it, the future of books, that kind of thing. So, why don't you start with just explaining your journey, becoming a marketing leader, and a CEO of a publishing company because I know your background. I know what you've gone through. You're quite the YouTube star with your Kitchen Dads, but this is something that I think is incredible, because they say everybody has a book inside them, and most people's lives is their message, but they don't know how to share it. So, I'm interested, how did you end up on this side of the table?

Cliff Pelloni (00:02:48):

Well sure AJ, before I got into publishing, my background was entrepreneurial startups, mid-range companies, fortune five companies, the [inaudible 00:02:58]. So, about 13, maybe 15 years ago, it's been a little while ago, there was some turmoil in the industry and I was looking to get back into entrepreneurship. So, I exited corporate, and I started a digital marketing company, video marketing, email management, things like that. And anytime you start something new, it's kind of an uphill battle.

(00:03:17):

So, I had some time, and I realized, "You know what? I want to write a book. I've been wanting to write a book for a while," so I wrote a little book.

(00:03:22):

It was a great book, but it was a little book. It was called What's Your Efluence? And I used it as a tool to send out to people before I would contact them, because up to this point, when I would contact them, it would be like, "Hey, don't bother me. Who are you? Why you're wasting my time? Get out of here," other choice words. So when I sent my book in advance, and then I called them, the dynamic of that conversation changed totally. It was like, "Oh, Cliff, we need your help. What can you do for us?" It was like I was already established as the expert. Now, a lot of these people had never read the book, but just due to the fact that I had the book in their mind, I was the expert.

(00:04:02):

Other people that I knew had businesses saw how the book helped me, so they asked me if I could help them with their books. Then fast-forward, hundreds of clients later, I've been fortunate, like you say, to work with all kinds of people over all the different spectrums from famous people to everyday people, business owners, entrepreneurs, everybody, because it's my goal and my job really to help people find their story, publish their book and profit from it. And everybody has a book in them. Everybody has multiple books in them, but everybody has at least one.

AJ Roberts (00:04:43):

I think it's interesting because when people think of books, they immediately think, "Am I going to have a New York Time bestseller?" Or, "Am I going to be winning in awards?" But the truth is, you use the book as an authority builder before a conversation. So, people who are getting started or trying to get their foot in the door, it's a differentiator. And it also positions them, so when they have the conversation... Like you said, a lot of people don't even read the book, but seeing the cover, the topic, they're going to instantly assume, "Oh, you must be the expert, because otherwise, how do you have a book on this topic," and put the effort in.

(00:05:30):

And I think that's something that people undervalue when it comes to physical products like a book is there is a level of effort that goes into it that shows the person on the other side of the table that you are someone who can finish something, put your thoughts in a packaged way that distills information in bite-sized chunks, and it just opens up to a different conversation.

(00:05:58):

Now, a lot of people, they'll think maybe books are becoming outdated, or, "There are so many books out there, how do I add anything to a topic?" They may be questioning like, "Do I really have anything of value inside of me?" And you and I have talked, and like you said, everybody has at least one. Usually when you get into things, you realize they have many books they could write, but why should somebody write a book?

Cliff Pelloni (00:06:26):

There's a lot of different reasons, AJ. There's a lot of different reasons, but it really comes down to one. I like to say, it's going to help build your business, your brand, and your bank account, because we've been around a long time in the marketing space, and there's a lot of different tools you can use to market, but I've never seen anything, one tool, that works as well as a book for people that are at all different levels. Whether you're starting out and you want to get into an industry, where you have a bit of a following and you want to up your credibility, or maybe you're someone known and you have a following, but you want to maybe break into a new area or just use it to elevate you or get into a new segment.

(00:07:04):

It opens so many doors. I've seen it open doors for people. They get speaking engagements. They get in front of people they normally wouldn't be able to, because they're able to use a book for the reasons that you just said. They get local press. They can use it in products. I mean, it does so much. If you think about it, the word authority, if you get rid of the I-T-Y is author. So the first part of authority is author. So if you write the book, you've got that built-in authority. I've never seen a tool work as well for anybody. It is just a matter of you should do it. Why aren't you doing it?

AJ Roberts (00:07:46):

That's a great point. And it's interesting you use the word tool. Because I think the hangup probably for a lot of people is they hear book, and they have a preconceived notion of what a book is, because they've purchased one before. It's 20 bucks, 30 bucks, whatever. You have a publishing company that's put it together. You do a big launch for it, and then it just sits there, and hopefully it's in the top 10 on Amazon and keeps selling.

(00:08:14):

But the things you mentioned, that doesn't matter, right? Your book could not be on Amazon, doesn't matter. So, maybe you could talk a little bit about that, about the benefits of essentially not having a big publishing deal, because a lot of people are thinking, "Okay, if I'm going to monetize my book, I'm going to sell it or I'm going to get a big advance from a publishing company." But what we are talking about is using this as a tool to build your business or build your authority depending on what industry you're in, right?

Cliff Pelloni (00:08:50):

Correct. Correct. You're right. There's some people that they want to have that deal. Or maybe they've got a big following and someone comes to them for that deal, but the majority of people I deal with are people that are going to use the book as a tool, as a fancy brochure, as a way to get in the door. We mentioned we almost always put it on Amazon, because Amazon is the big dog in the market, and it helps with credibility, but there are people... I ask people upfront, "What's your goals?" Some people are like, "Oh, I want to sell a million books. I want to be in New York Times bestseller."

(00:09:23):

I'm like, "Well, that's great. I'll keep that intention for you, but let's talk about how we're going to use your book to sell more of what you're selling, to get more speaking engagements, to sell more products, to get more consulting." That's what I want you to use the book for. I want you to get in front of your ideal client, as an introduction to their ideal client. And so yes, we'll put it on Amazon, but there are some clients that I have that don't use it. I have some speakers that their book is only available when they speak, and if they speak and they offer their book, they'll offer it free as long as you take a little survey.

(00:09:58):

So, they're buying their book, which essentially you can get when you publish, which is the great part, for three, four, or $5 wholesale. So when they do that, they're picking up a potential client or a lead for $3 or $4, which is unheard of in marketing channels. I have other clients that use it in free plus shipping funnels. I have other clients that use it to get speaking engagements and TED Talks. They send it off with a one sheet, and they get noticed because their package is crinkly, and it's full, and it comes out with credibility.

(00:10:31):

So yes, if you want to have a book, and you want to get a book deal, more power to you, but you can probably do way better if you market it yourself. Put together a marketing plan and use the book as the entrance point for your platform. It's a-

AJ Roberts (00:10:48):

So in a way, if you are a writer, and you want to write, obviously a traditional route is probably your direction because your goal is to write lots of books, series, whatever to get paid for those, and get paid to write. What we are talking about, or you are talking about specifically is, every person. So whether you're a thinker, a writer or not, if you have something that you're passionate about or a story you could tell, you can instruct a lesson, you have room for a book. And using it as a tool to build upon, to get speaking engagements, to do the free plus shipping to get a buyer versus an opt-in.

(00:11:33):

It's interesting you mentioned speaking, because the reason I came back and said, "Hey, Cliff, I think I'm ready to do one of these books," was because I was at an event in Costa Rica, and I'm sitting there, and it said, "No pitch event," which is how most events are nowadays. So, the speaker is either there on their own dime, or they're paid to be there, but generally, nobody is selling anything from stage. And a lot of people have gone to that just because getting butts in seats sometimes is difficult and if they think, "Oh, we're going to be sold some stuff," it could hurt ticket sales.

(00:12:06):

But in some instances, I think selling is perfectly fine from the stage and in other instances, you might not want to. The topic might not lead to that, right? But, I saw a presenter, and his presentation, in my mind, I wouldn't call him a strong speaker. He had good information, but it was a little dry, little tough to follow, and I could tell the audience was struggling to pay attention and stay engaged. So I was like, "Oh man," because I know this guy. I really like him. His information's amazing, so I'm thinking, "Okay, man, if he could just get a little bit more dynamic on stage, he'd crush these presentations."

(00:12:46):

At the end of his presentation though, he basically said, "I've written two books, and it was related to the presentation. And as my gift to you, I want you to have these." Had a QR code, "Scan the QR code." I would say 90% of that room took out their phones, scanned the QR code, gave him their information, and got the books. Now, you talk about for the speaker what just happened, right? Because regardless of whether he was paid to be there or not, the truth is he walked away with people who are probably his ideal clients. The reason I say that is they've already taken their wallet out. They've paid to go to an event. They've flown to a different country, and they're all business owners who his business serviced.

(00:13:36):

So, he just got the most valuable thing you can have from the event, which is almost everybody's contact information. And I immediately said, "I shouldn't speak on a podcast, I shouldn't present at an event unless I have a book to give away, because I have never seen..." I have seen people do, "I've put some bonuses together, or if you want my slides," I have never seen that many people pick up their phone, and hold it. And almost, it creates that effect where, if the person next to you has your phone, you're like, "Oh, I should get it too," so you get that kind of peer pressure.

(00:14:15):

But I was fascinated by that, and I thought, "Man," because previously with the book, it's kind of like I've done seminars and courses and events and it's like, "Okay, I got to put all that in a book, but if I'm charging $5,000, $10,000 for event, do I really want a book that has the same information for $20 or $100?"

(00:14:38):

After this though, it shifted, because it wasn't about what the book costs. It was about the value of the person who's willing to give you their information for that book, or invest something for that book, and realizing that... I'm really big on quality over quantity, and realizing that the right book on the right topic is going to be the best way to attract the ideal client. So to me, it makes total sense everything you're sharing. That said, is there ever a case where someone absolutely shouldn't write a book?

Cliff Pelloni (00:15:22):

Look, as we talked about, most people that I deal with are those nonfiction books. Coaches, consultants, business owners, [inaudible 00:15:30] that type of thing. I do have a couple of people that have used their life story, and written a life story book, but they use it in the way that everyone else would. So to me, no, because it's really about positioning. And it's really about who you're going after and your ideal client, and so I still say it needs to be a nonfiction, informational type of book, but if you've got those people that want to do life books, I've got a client who wrote a group book.

(00:16:00):

She didn't want to do a book herself, but she had a bunch of other coaches together, and she's using that to promote herself, doing a book tour, getting more coaching clients. So, my answer would be, "No. Everybody should be writing a book," but not everybody does. That's the problem. I'd like to talk a little bit about why people don't write their books. Because you will know-

AJ Roberts (00:16:23):

Let's do that. That's a good point. If everyone should, why do people not get a book done? Especially as you said earlier, it works. It seems to work in every industry. There's really not a place a book doesn't work that we've seen, and we had that conversation off-air, but why wouldn't someone or why doesn't someone get a book done?

Cliff Pelloni (00:16:46):

After working with hundreds of people, I've kind of distilled this down to three main areas. We'll go through them, and then we can get them to a little deeper. They have no time, they hate writing, and they lack clarity. That's the three big pillars, so let's talk to the first one, no time. We're all busy. We have kids. We have businesses we're running, or we have a job. People have said, "I've got elderly parents. I've got elderly pets. I volunteer." We're all flat out. Well, guess what? I get 24 hours. AJ, you get 24 hours. There's no bonus hours. There's nobody going to say, "Oh, you did a really good job this week. Here's three bonus hours that you're going to have to go set aside and write your book."

(00:17:30):

So, it's not about the hours. It's about time block and time management. So, the first thing is we have to find ways that you can utilize little blocks of time to work on your book, and then bring in some of the other strategies that I have, but it's more about time focus and time block management.

(00:17:48):

Second one is, hate writing. Now, the problem with most people is they have in their mind or they conceive at least that they have to write the book, which I call, the hard way. Now, the hard way is you sit down at your computer, or you grab a journal, and somehow you tap into the unconscious universe, and it's supposed to flow through your brain into your fingers, and words are going to just magically appear on the page, but that doesn't happen, right? What's going to happen is, unless you're a writer...

(00:18:21):

We're going to preface this by, there's a small percentage of people who are writers, and they can do that, right? For the 99% of the rest of us, it doesn't happen. What happens is, you start to get frustrated, you get discouraged, you get a little depressed and mad, and then you move to the next action. And the next action most of the time involves an adult beverage and Netflix, because you're like, "You know what? I'll get back to this. I'm just not flowing right now. It's not me. I'm just not flowing." So, you go off, and then maybe you come back. Sometimes you don't. Maybe you come back, and you get a half a page out, and then you go through that cycle again.

(00:18:58):

And the next thing you know you've binged a series, and you have no book. You don't need to do it the hard way. What you do need to know, which goes into the next piece really of you hate writing, is that everybody has an author style. And if you can match your author style with your output style, the words are going to flow. May not flow like a writer, but they're going to flow. I've identified three main types of authors. First are writers, that rare 1% who can sit down at a computer, and they can knock out five, 10 pages at a time, and feel good and come back and it flows. I know a few people. I've dealt with a few of those people. They're great, because they just pump out content.

(00:19:43):

The second would be verbalists. Now, a verbalist is a person where you can say, "Well, here's the topic." Then they could go off for five or 10 or 15, 20 minutes, 30 minutes, half an hour with the great stuff, but they can talk about it, right? We're working together. AJ, you're a verbalist, right?

AJ Roberts (00:19:58):

Yes.

Cliff Pelloni (00:20:00):

Yes. Yes. I mean, you can say [inaudible 00:20:01].

AJ Roberts (00:20:01):

We figured that out. Took a while. Took a while. My ego wanted to say I could write, but you're absolutely right. It's a lot easier for me to speak than it is to sit and write, especially when we're talking about tens of thousands of words.

Cliff Pelloni (00:20:19):

Right. Right, but it's all good stuff. I mean, it's good content coming out. The third kind is modifiers. Now, modifiers are people that have maybe existing content, but you need to give it to them in a different format that they can take it. So, I have some people that they have either videos, or they have maybe a course, and we extrapolate it. We put it into a different format and give it to them, and then it's easy for them to turn into a format that's readable.

(00:20:45):

A lot of people are combinations of two. So, some people might be a primary verbalist with a bit of a modifier put in, or some people might be more modifier with a little bit of a writer. So, it isn't like a blood type where you're just this, but you usually have a primary and a secondary.

(00:21:03):

So, you have no time. We have time. Learn your author style, and then the third one is they lack clarity. And I hear so many different times, and we've had this conversation, "What book do I write?" Because there's lots of books going in your head. "Should I do this book? Should I do this book about... Which one do I do first?" And so, what it comes down to is we want to write a book that's going to talk to our ideal audience. Whatever your ideal customer is, it's going to be your ideal audience.

(00:21:32):

I don't know if you remember a movie from a little while ago called Groundhog Day with Bill Murray and Andy McDowell, where he keeps reliving the same day over and over and over again. Well, there's lots of methods to get clarity. We're going to talk about this one. This is a fun one. I call it my over and over method.

(00:21:50):

So if you're a coach, consultant, business owner, anybody, you're dealing with somebody, and you have a sales pitch. You have information you want to relate to them. You know primarily what questions they're going to ask, what objections are going to come up. It's that same information that you do over and over and over again, different clients, same information, same questions, all that stuff.

(00:22:13):

So, you want to take that information, and then that's your book, because it's going to speak to your ideal client. Because the book is the entrance point to your ideal client many times, and it's going to help to determine whether they want to proceed with you. They might want... Or they're not. But usually, if you have a book that speaks to the ideal client, and it speaks to their objections, their desires, they're going to want to take the next step, which is coaching, consulting, products, seminars, whatever.

(00:22:41):

So, those are the three main things why people don't write a book, no time, hate writing, and lack clarity. And we can overcome those. I mean, I think we've used a little of some of those to help get clear, and it's like a bulb going off. It's like when you're trying to put that with those little round pegs into a different shape hole, it doesn't work. But when you realize, "Oh, I can just do this, it's easy," especially when someone who's a verbalist, can relay information verbally.

AJ Roberts (00:23:12):

Well, I think, when you think about clarity, because I think that's probably the biggest hurdle, and at least when we're working together picking a topic, the thing I had to realize that helped me move forward was this doesn't have to be my life's work. It doesn't have to be the only book I write. It doesn't even have to be the same book if I don't like the outcome. I could rewrite the book as many times as I want moving forward if things change, and being somewhat of a perfectionist has helped me and hurt me. This is one area where I was getting caught up in my head like, "Okay, once it's on paper, that's it. It's out there. I have to live by all of this. I can never check..."

(00:24:03):

So, I had all these misconceptions and voices in my head around what it needed to be and when we got together, I showed you a completed outline for another book, but having discussed what we were after, what I wanted to do with this book, you were like, "I don't think that's the book to go with it," because this does seem more one that we would push for a New York Time bestseller, and we would position as a main book that you would find in a bookstore. What you are looking for is something to continue the relationship with the customer, and move them in the direction that teaches them about what you feel is most important, which is setting up your marketing systems, automation, those kind of things.

(00:24:50):

I don't want to say too much to give the book away, but ultimately, it was like there was a very specific purpose, and therefore we were able to come up with a very specific topic that we think is going to do very, very well, but speak to that a little bit because I think people listening would say, "Okay, but I do work with these people and these people and these people and how do I write a book that is all encompassing?" Do they need to? Do they not need to? What are your thoughts on that?

Cliff Pelloni (00:25:21):

Sure. So, that's a good point that you brought up when you said you were focused on, "If I do this book, it's set in stone," because that's the way it used to be, right? It used to be, before Amazon came around and the advent of self-publishing, and it made it easier to actually get the book into production, or do the book tech as I like to call it, it was a big process. You had to get a book deal. Someone did a lot of the work, and then it could be two years from the time that you actually wrote the book for it to come out.

(00:25:51):

And with the way information's going now, it could be two months where you could start the book by the time it comes out, or getting ready to put it, you might want to amend or update or something like that.

(00:26:03):

I have a client who's in the drone space and they do multiple things, but their book, and it's a simple book, it's an educational book but because of the book, they've done millions and millions of dollars in products [inaudible 00:26:20] so many people, they use it different ways. One of it is a free plus shipping funnel, which a lot of people know about free plus shipping funnels. They've experienced free plus shipping funnels. It's an entrance point to sell more of that.

(00:26:38):

You want to talk to your ideal client, but like most people, your ideal client may shift or you may have several different ideal clients or variations of your ideal clients. When we sit down and we've all done that, "What's your ideal client and describe them as much as possible," all that stuff. When I do that, I've got three or four people.

(00:26:58):

But what happens is there's a core that speaks to all of them. There's a core bit of information. The book you're working on, there's a core bit of information that's going to be applicable to all those people. And then some people might associate with this story or they want this feature or they don't like this feature, but it's going to draw them in. That core is going to draw them in. The biggest thing is, get the book out. Go do the book. You'll find out. You'll get feedback. People will think it's great. If things change, you can update it.

(00:27:34):

That's the nice thing about self-publishing is that you can update the book and then if you do that, Amazon will let the people know who bought it, say, "Hey, this is a new version, it's substantially different." And they'll push it out. Now they're going to get your new book.

(00:27:48):

You don't have to worry about not speaking to everybody. You just need to put your information out because I mean, I've dealt with people who are love coaches. I've dealt with everybody, no matter what business you're in, there's people right now out there that would benefit and need the information that you have. And I'm saying, "you," I'm saying to everybody out there in the audience. Whatever information you have, even if you don't have a business, if you have life skills and experience, write about that because there's people going through the same thing that you have. Don't get so hung up on covering all the bases, just get in the game.

AJ Roberts (00:28:31):

And I think what's interesting is when you think of it from that thought process, once you have the book out, you can always... And I'm thinking of Chicken Soup for the Soul, right? It's like, there's the main book and then they've made it for teenagers, they've made it for stay-at-home moms. They have all these niches that they've gone down. There's no reason you couldn't do that with your book if you wanted to.

(00:28:57):

So if you have success, "Okay, I have these three avatars," how can I customize what I have to speak a little bit more to that audience? And for example, with my book, when we're talking about marketing automation, marketing automation is pretty much the same, but what you automate may be very different. So the topic of automation is very applicable to everyone, but if I wanted to, I could then take the book and create specific versions for different verticals, different niches that speak specifically to their day-to-day and what it would do and those kinds of things.

(00:29:32):

Now here's the thing with that, and we mentioned this earlier, but you are going to sell way less of those books. But again, you're getting a much more targeted customer and one of the things you've been great at is working with your clients to not only get the book, but to understand the power of the book and how to monetize the backend.

(00:29:55):

So maybe you could talk a little bit about that because I know you've helped customers expand their product portfolios, increase their revenue, those kind of things and a lot of people, they might be listening and they have a book and they're like, "Wow, I've never made money with this and I've tried to give it away." But what's that strategy? Because like you said, the book is kind of the starting point or the springboard to what should be a much larger business.

Cliff Pelloni (00:30:20):

Right, so because of my sales and marketing background, I always approach it from, "How are you going to use this book?" So when I talk to a client, and I do mostly private clients up to this point, it's been, "Let's not talk so much about what your book is, but talk about what your end goal is going to be." Because if we want to get to here, I want to find out what the process is throughout and how we can insert the book and then what that process is along. And it could be funnels, could be different things.

(00:30:51):

So the conversation always is about, what's the end goal? And then I got to find out what they're willing to do. Because some people don't want to speak, they don't want to go out. They're happy to do a podcast, but they don't want to travel. Some people have a product. They have a physical product they want to sell. Some people have courses. So we go through kind of in depth of, who your customer is, who you're going to make this [inaudible 00:31:18] to be, where you want to be, and then we start filling the pieces in.

(00:31:24):

A big thing for a lot of people is being on Amazon. And that big whole Amazon launch I call the bestseller run, that's important because you get some Amazon juice and you get some Google juice, and when people look you up, you get that stuff. But I tell them that's really just the end of their book creation and that's the beginning of their promotion standpoint. I have what I call the five P's of profitable publishing. It's prepare, produce, publish, promote, and profit. And then if you're good and you do what I say, you get the last one, which is party. But it's part of a marketing plan.

(00:32:10):

I mean, that's essentially what it is. Just like anything else, it's part of a marketing plan. It's part of a funnel and you have to come at it from... And I'd say there's a big difference between a $10 book and a million dollar book because the $10 books are the ones that people that published a book, they got a bunch of them in their garage or their basement or in their office, and they're sitting on the counter and they have no idea what to do with them. They just wanted to write a book, but they didn't think about how they were going to use it.

(00:32:40):

The million dollar book or hundreds of thousands of dollars book is different because they've incorporated that into their marketing funnel, into their marketing program. We talk about special pages in the book, and part of the book itself is, what are you going to offer in the book? Because there'll be people that are going to get your book. They could get a paperback form, they could get electronic form.

(00:33:03):

The benefit of doing electronic books also is people that come to Amazon, but they have clickable links. So like you said, I might have three different segments of people that want to do automation. Well, in the book, from an electronic standpoint, you can come up with three different links that could take them to three different [inaudible 00:33:23] funnels. In the paperback, do a QR code. Go to QR code, pops up a page, say, "Which one are you?" Right? So it's so many different tools and you're combining marketing, you're combining the internet, you're combining AI tools with old school just print paper, and it's part of a comprehensive program. That's what I got to get people to understand. It's just not about publishing. It's a comprehensive program. It's the five P's of profitable publishing.

AJ Roberts (00:33:57):

Yeah, I think that's so important because it's like anything, I'll use a sales letter as an example. People will say, "Oh, I need a sales letter." And then they hire a copywriter and the copywriter comes to them with this 50 questions and they ask them about their audience and their biggest challenges for the audience, the number one questions and they can't answer them.

(00:34:22):

And so then, well, you don't need a sales letter. We need to go back and we need to create your avatar. We need to create all these foundational pieces so then we can create it. And I think the reason I bring this up is because some people are probably listening and they're going, "Well, I don't know what all the biggest questions are because I have only worked with a handful of people," or they haven't asked what questions people have.

(00:34:48):

And I think that for those people, one of the things that I found very beneficial now is AI has really helped you with research phase. And so one of the things that's really been helpful for me is like, "Okay, this is my target audience. This is the person I want to talk to." And working through a customer avatar exercise, coming up with descriptions of what keeps them up at night, what they're stress about, what motivators and what type of stuff do they read. And getting this picture before I started this, with the outline and everything like that, it's just really having to understand, "Okay, this is who I'm going after. These are my thoughts, but what can I research?" And using ChatGPT, I'm able to say, "Okay, give me 20 questions that someone had asked about this topic." And then I can look and I go, "Oh, yeah, I've heard that one a bunch. I've seen that one a bunch."

(00:35:46):

Back in the day, you'd have to go to forums and groups and you'd really have to scour for this information. So I think today's day and age, you can get a book done way quicker than before. And I say that knowing you and I have been in this process and this has not been the top priority, so I kind of keep putting it aside. That time issue with me, right? But as I look at it, it's like a lot of my thought process is, "Oh, I know what I'm going to do here and I'm going to do here." And because I think it's a quick process, I've not managed my time well. But it is nice to know that I can go deeper on topics using ChatGPT as a research aid because I can get information that could have taken a year just to get before.

(00:36:36):

And I think that's something that's super powerful because even if you wanted a quote in the book, you could say, "I'm writing about this. Give me five famous quotes around this topic," or, "Five quotes that would fit this." Boom. You get your quotes. You don't have to go scour for those. So that the process has become easier, but we see less people or the same amount of people. There's not an uptick in people doing this stuff because it's that clarity which comes from the research and understanding your audience that a lot of people have the mystery around, but now they can eliminate that, right?

(00:37:14):

So the excuses are falling away and so the reality is, most people just need to say, "Would this help me? Yes or no?" And if it's a yes, "Okay, how do I get it done?" Right? And I think you mentioned earlier, the biggest way you learn who you are, figure out what's easiest for you. But it's odd to think that you could be illiterate, you could never read a book, and you could get a book done now and it'd be very good and very effective, right?

Cliff Pelloni (00:37:40):

Yes, yes. It's interesting that you talk about AI because I just did a series of videos on why not to use AI to write your book unless you do it the right way. And you just kind of described the right way because people, they're like, "Oh, AI can do all this stuff for you and, "Go write a book in a weekend. You can use AI." I can't even clean my garage out on the weekend. I mean, I could probably get a book out, but it's not going to be a professional book that's going to represent me and speak to my ideal client.

(00:38:17):

Let's talk a little bit more about AI. The other thing about AI is it's not you. They don't have your voice yet. Eventually, maybe they're going to be able to have your voice. You can upload all your documents and everything that you've ever written in videos, and it can create you. But right now it doesn't have you and it doesn't have your stories because stories are what sell.

(00:38:36):

But the part and the way you described it is what I suggest people how they use AI. You use it in the production of the book, you use it in the research of the book. You still have to go through the process. You have to have someone who's going to help you, a program or a coach or something to pull you through that process. You said from a time standpoint, it's dragged out a little bit, but the actual time that you spent doing it has been very minute because when you're focused, you get a lot done.

AJ Roberts (00:39:05):

Yes.

Cliff Pelloni (00:39:05):

And it's great. The fact that we can go now and say, "Yeah, give me 10 quotes." I could go to AI and say, "This is what this chapter is about. Here's the lesson I want them to learn. Go out and find a quote that matches that." That would've taken hours and hours and hours of just research, reading quotes, thinking maybe not, all that stuff. And you can do it in just literally seconds. Have 10 quotes, pick the one you want, and then it adds value to the book. It makes it more professional. So people should be using AI. They should be using it the right way. They just shouldn't, in my opinion, pumping out these crappy AI books. Right? [inaudible 00:39:50].

AJ Roberts (00:39:50):

Well, I think the theme that we've talked about before, and you mentioned earlier that maybe the listeners didn't pick up on, but the theme is the reason for the book. This is a tool to show your expertise. So if I crank a book out with AI, which you can do... You can probably get a book done in three hours if you just sit there. You got to work around the limitations because can only input so much, but you could get a book done in a day, two days, whatever, a lot quicker than anybody realizes.

(00:40:26):

But if the information in that book isn't yours and you don't know it, you are not going to get it back. You would be much better served doing audio, transcribing, putting the transcription in and saying, "Edit this to make sense."

Cliff Pelloni (00:40:42):

Yes.

AJ Roberts (00:40:43):

"Edit this to be a chapter in a book. Break this down into sections," and then getting the first draft and then audio recording any expansion, anything you want to add, filtering back to... So using it as an editor, those kinds of things are all ways to, I think, coexist.

(00:41:06):

And I think that, again, it comes down to the purpose, right? There's going to be people who just crank eBooks and books out with this. And the purpose is not to build a long-term relationship. It's just to get a lead, and then they're going to monetize that lead. But this is really for those that want to be influential, those that want to be known as an expert for a certain topic, probably do have some visibility around said topic. This is the correct path to go in my mind.

(00:41:43):

And I think that AI allows them to brain dump, organize, edit way better than previously, but it's still not a replacement for you, your stories. And that's the other piece. If it doesn't know your stories, it's not going to weave those in. So you can get a basic outline, but you're still going to need to go back and say, "Okay, do I have a personal story for this?" Or, "Is there a story I should be telling here?"

(00:42:11):

And those are the kind of things that if you don't know, you're going to need help with because, as you said, the whole purpose of the book is to get them to move along their journey with you. One of my favorite books, Up the Loyalty Ladder, it talks about the ascension. And if someone purchases a book, the majority of people... It should never be the last project. It should literally be the entryway.

(00:42:37):

And I always look at Tony Robbins as a good example for people when it comes to like, "Well, what's the power of a book?" Well, Tony, now he has multiple books, but that's recent. For the long, long time, he only had one book, which led to one event, which then he sold other events from. But the book was the gateway to the information. The event was to experience the information in a much more transformational way, and then that brought them into his world and that model so many people could do.

(00:43:12):

And it's like when you think about it, "I can write a book on one topic and create an entire business around just that topic," which is probably going to be more powerful than writing a book and then having a product that's not related or having 10 books and only one product. Because, we've mentioned this before, but expertise, the person who talks about the same thing over and over and over again, defaults as the expert.

(00:43:44):

Whereas someone like myself who has vast experience in many different areas, sometimes it's confusing to people because it's like, "Oh, wait, I thought you were a powerlifter," or, "I thought you were doing seminars around the world. Oh wait, you're doing business software?" So it becomes confusing. And so a lot of people, even in my own network will say, "Well, what are you up to nowadays?" Because it's constantly evolving and changing, and that's my personality, that's who I am. But even I can see the downfall in that.

(00:44:14):

And I think that having a book is one of those things that, especially when it's your book, not a chapter in someone else's book, I've done a few of those that don't really lead to much, this is a strategy. This is a very specific strategy that not only builds your business from a revenue standpoint, but from an authority standpoint which, nowadays, has more value than ever before.

(00:44:42):

What are some of the difficulties? You've worked with hundreds of people, all different levels from people who are celebrities, all the way down to just regular folks that work a nine to five. What are some of the biggest challenges people have to go through once they start the process? Because I always like to talk about this because most people think, "If I hire you, everything's sold. I got a book." But that's really just the beginning. I'm committed now and we're going to have quite the ups and downs to get this done. So in your experience, what are some of the challenges and maybe talk to how to overcome those.

Cliff Pelloni (00:45:19):

Sure. So the biggest challenge, and I tell this right upfront, is that life is going to get in the way, right? You're going to get all excited. You're going to do want to do this, you're going to make the commitment, and then you're going to go at it, and then something's going to happen. So in your mind, people are like, "Well, how long does it take to write a book?" And I'm like, "Look, I've had people do it from three to six months to three years because life gets in the way."

(00:45:51):

It's hard for some people to accept that. It's hard for some people that are just like, "Well, this is my main project. I'm going to focus a hundred percent on this, and then I want to get it done." And then whatever it is, job, business, children, travel, other opportunities, Corona... I've had people that have started a book right before the pandemic and they went away, and then they came back because they had other things to focus on. So cut yourself some slack, right? Cut yourself some slack.

(00:46:27):

The other thing is staying motivated. I call it the number one reason why people don't write their book is really comes down to accountability. You got to have some type of accountability, just like anything else. If you're working out, trying to become fit, whatever you're going to do, whether it's a publishing partner, you get into a program, you hire a coach like me, whatever, but you've got to have some type of accountability. Because of lesson number one or reason number one, life getting in the way, We got to keep you moving along during the process.

(00:47:03):

There's been times where I've pinged you, I'm like, "I don't want to bug him, but it's been a while and I know you got lots and lots going, but let's keep this moving." And so you need to have some type of accountability.

(00:47:15):

Some people get publishing partners. They'll go into a group program or a self-directed program, but they'll get an accountability partner, a publishing partner. Sometimes it's someone who's publishing a book, they're going to do books together. Sometimes it's just someone they check in with and they want to keep them moving along the process. "Here's what my next goal is. Here's what I'm trying to achieve it just like anything else, can you help me achieve it?"

(00:47:40):

So those are the two major things that I see that really help keep people moving along. I want to circle back though when you talk about a book. It goes back into a book, is it going to build your business, your brand and your bank account? And we're talking about brand, really. I have a program called Professionally Published because the books that I want people to have, I want them to be proud of. I want them to feel like and look like it's a professionally published book, that it came out of a publishing house, that it doesn't scream self-published.

(00:48:14):

Because we've all been there. Somebody's really proud of their book and they look it up and it is ugly. I mean, they don't make it past the cover. I mean, there's things we talk about, the seven-second rule that if you don't have the right elements on your cover that the people are going to proceed or pivot, and either you attract them or they are gone forever.

(00:48:35):

So we want to make a professional book, and we just want to use AI the right way. We want to have someone that you have accountability to that keeps you moving along. We want you to be able to utilize your time, whatever time you have, to get it done. And we want you to know how you're going to use your book when you're done. So it's a system.

(00:49:00):

The first couple of people I dealt with the books over the course of time, I'm like, "Well, there's a pattern here. It's human nature." It doesn't matter what you do for a profession. It doesn't matter if you're a man or a woman or you like to write, you don't like to write. There's a pattern. And it's really just human nature, and it's finding a way to function in your lifestyle.

(00:49:25):

And again, like I said, everybody's busy. Everybody's got something going. But my goal, I want to get the book out of your head and into your hand. Because if it's in your hand, then we can put it into a system to make it work for you. It doesn't do any good in your head. It doesn't do good in your head. And you know what the coolest part about having a book is you can leave it on your coffee table and when people come over, it's a great conversation starter.

AJ Roberts (00:49:51):

And we have some books out here from different guests. And it's interesting, at events oftentimes you'll get a book in the swag bag. And I got to be honest, that's one of the only things I keep. There's lots of people that have postcards in there and [inaudible 00:50:07], like pens and stuff like that. And maybe I'll keep that stuff, but I don't throw books away.

(00:50:13):

Now, I love books. I got a huge collection. So there's some nostalgia with that I like to flip through. But you're right, in terms of the book, and especially when it is a good quality book... Because I've gotten those self-published books that you kind of look at it and you're like, you start to read it and you open it up and it's small in the first place, but then the text is like a text message in there, you're going, "Man, the white space is off." So it does make it difficult to read.

(00:50:42):

But it's interesting because I think that the expectations for a book, and then when we look at brand and we look at positioning, all of those things count. And so it is important to put time into that because when I was young, there was that saying, build it and they'll come. And the reality is that's not true. You can be the best in the world at something, and if you don't know how to showcase that, people can't find you.

(00:51:15):

And I talk to creators all the time and they'll say, "Such and such, he has a hundred thousand followers on YouTube, but he doesn't even know anything. And I've been doing this longer," and they're having a pity party. And I always look at them and I say, "Yeah, but they've created videos for the last 10 years. So when I look up information on that topic, that's who I find. That's who the algorithms point me to. That's where the search engines go."

(00:51:44):

And so one of the things to consider, and I considered with this whole process is, okay, if we're going to write the book, the next stage is, okay, we write the book and now this becomes the guideline for my content creation around this topic. So now I can create lead gen for the book by taking the book and going in and ChatGPT will probably be my best friend with this because I'll take the chapter and I'll say, "What are 20 videos that I could create around this topic?" And it will go, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom. And then, because I know the subject, I'm going to be able to get on camera and bust those out.

(00:52:23):

But I think that those are the kind of things that people need to start looking around a book is, okay, if you've got this information, fantastic, it gives you that authority, but it's also now a guide to your brand on that topic.

(00:52:37):

And I think that people need to understand that in today's day and age, you can have multiple brands and be successful. You can be known in one area for one thing and another area for something else, and do very, very well. We've seen it. I'm sure you have authors who have done one, and then you're like... But it's like they have those audiences. So I think that's really, really important.

(00:52:59):

What you think has evolved with books over the years? What's different now than it was say, early 2000s when we didn't have ChatGPT, YouTube wasn't as robust as it is, and it was a two to five year process to get a book done?

Cliff Pelloni (00:53:20):

So one of the biggest things is just the advent of self-publishing or the availability of tools. Amazon's the big dog in the market, but there's a bunch of other places that you can publish your book. And this is the part where it also kind of hangs some people up because some people come to me with a manuscript, but they're stuck because they're not able to do what I call the book tech, right?

(00:53:40):

The book tech is things like editors, integral design, if you use pictures, what format they have to be in? What's an ISBN? Do I have to copyright it? How do I get a cover design that's not really ugly? What are my special pages? I mean, all of this stuff. So before you had to go to an expert. You had to go someone like a big publishing house, you had to make a pitch, they said yes or no, and then that or there was no avenue. You might be able to go to a college university if you had that type of thing.

(00:54:16):

But now with the advent of self-publishing, you can take those elements, you can create those things. You can do research, you can get a course, you can get a coach, and they can help you through all that book tech. People are using tools like ChatGPT. They're using video. Before it was just, here's a paperback, put it online. Then people realized, "Oh wow, I can use clickable links." And some of this has been the development of Amazon. There've been kind of innovators on that, but I can embed stuff in my ebook.

(00:54:54):

They can create different medias. They can combine media into the book. You can do links. If you've got an ebook, there're live links. There's some that you actually pop up the video. So right within the book itself can be a message from you. So you got someone who paid money to have your book, they click on a link and then you're talking to them. I mean, how great is that? If you get a paperback book or a hardcover book, you can use a QR code or something else that allows you to do the same type of thing with them.

(00:55:24):

It is being able to come overcome the book tech part of that, I think is the biggest thing. Because before, where you stopped was, "I have a manuscript." Right? You had to have a manuscript. If you didn't have a manuscript, there was very few people that were able to go and say, "Hey, I've got an idea. Pay me to write this book." You had to do that. But then they stopped at the manuscript. You sent it off, no dice, you couldn't do anything with it. Now you can do it.

(00:55:59):

You talk about people who were able to have different audiences to do different things. All right? So I'm going to use myself as an example only because you mentioned it earlier in the podcast. So besides being a publishing coach, I'm a big cook. My mom was from Germany, my dad was Italian. We would talk about food on the next meal while eating the current meal.

(00:56:24):

I'm an older dad, so several years ago I decided I wanted to create some videos to have them for all time. And when I get old, I can remember how to make the recipes. Put them on YouTube, got a call from food network casting. They said, "Hey, you're pretty good. We don't have any dads that cook. We'd love for you to come out and try to be the next Food Network star." Like, "Oh, that's great." At the time I couldn't do it, kids were young, but I'm like, "I got something here."

(00:56:50):

So the first thing I did, I'm like, "Well, how can I create a book around this?" If there's not a lot of dads that cook and some of the food was about learning the basics of cooking because my kids were getting to the age where they need to learn the basics. Other people I knew that would come over, they don't know. I mean, guys would grill and that's all they would do. So I created a book called Kitchen Dads The Basics, and it's an instructional book and it's recipes.

(00:57:14):

I've used that book to build... And again, this is just like a hobby, but I built a YouTube channel. I've gotten local press. I've had people contact me to do paid videos. I've had paid appearances. I've used it for charity for my own purposes where I've gone out and I've donated those and I've used it for charity and it's completely opposite. Some people know me as the Kitchen Dad and they don't have any idea the fact that I publish books or I help people publish books. Some people know that I'm the publishing guy and have no idea that I cook. So like you, you wear many different hats.

(00:57:55):

People are trying to consume information now with smaller bites, so you don't have to take and make this big huge book with everything in it. I mean, you could create a book about automation that would be like an encyclopedia. If we sat down and tried to extract everything you knew about automation and marketing, it would be like a multi-volume set, which no one would want to read because just, they won't sit down. But they will read these, I call them little pocket books. You can read them in an hour or a couple readings, and it's somewhat niched.

(00:58:24):

So you can do that and you can speak to those segments. I mean, you might put the individual segments within the book, or you can create separate books for the little niche segments. And some of it can be the same. I've had people take a book and write it, a piece of that content and then change the rest of it, change the stories, for the different segment that they want to speak to.

(00:58:46):

I have an example, a lady who, she is a financial planner and she does general financial planning, but she also has a specialty for widows and women who have businesses that they need to sell. So she created a sub book, a second book specifically around women and their wealth. And it's all about women who are widowed or women who have a business to sell, they don't want to make mistakes. She goes through the whole process and it's amazing to watch when she speaks what books she pulls out or if she puts them out, which one they gravitate to.

(00:59:22):

So I know we got a little off-topic on there, but it comes back to the importance of, don't pigeonhole yourself. Don't worry about it. Use automation in the right way, which you've mentioned about and just start. If you would've started a year ago, you would've had your book out now, right? I mean, how long did you think about doing a book? I mean, you probably had it circulated in your head, then you went to that event and that was the trigger, right? So for people that are listening to this podcast or watching this podcast, what's the trigger for you? What's the trigger for you? It's in your head. You've been thinking about it. We want to get out of your head. We want to get into your hand. What's your trigger? Do it.

AJ Roberts (01:00:05):

Absolutely. So we covered a lot, and maybe you could just summarize in your opinion, what is the biggest advice you would give someone who is listening to this and thinking, "I think I got a book in me." What is it you would tell that person? What are the first steps? Obviously in my opinion, they should just work with you, but for some people, they like to go at it all alone. So what is the biggest advice you'd give someone who's looking at self-publishing?

Cliff Pelloni (01:00:36):

Sure. So my first piece of advice is you have a book in you, right? So don't doubt yourself. You have a book in you. Second of all, use ChatGPT, talk to your people. If you're relatively new in an industry, call up a couple of clients. I mean, if you're going to write a book, you're going to do it because of a purpose. You're not completely, totally brand new. And you probably had a couple of clients.

(01:00:58):

I've had people just call and say, "Look, you know what I'm thinking about writing a book and I need some feedback." And they've asked questions of people that have purchased their stuff, and so they're able to get some information. So find out who your target market's going to be.

(01:01:14):

Find a system, whether it's one of the programs I have working with me or somebody else. There's a lot of great coaches out there, but you need either a system or a coach because you're going to come across the accountability issue. You're going to come across those three reasons why I said most people don't write books, time, hate writing, lack clarity. You're going to need somebody to push you through. You're going to need someone to go to for answers.

(01:01:41):

You can try to go and do it alone. I mean, I've seen people do that and some people have had some success because there's a lot more information out there now than before, but they usually get stuck in the book tech, right? So find a system, find some kind of system. Shoot, if you know someone who published a book, go ask them, right? If you know someone who's already published a book and said, "I want to go write a book. I saw your book," they'll point you in the right direction.

(01:02:12):

Just get started, right? Right now, the book is in your head. If you don't take action, it's never going to get out of your head. And again, what it comes down to is, there's somebody out there right now that needs the information that you have. It may be the same information that somebody else can present, but it's going to be presented in a way that they associate with you. You might nuance it differently. Your stories might be different, right? It's going to attract you.

(01:02:39):

A lot of people are like, "Oh, I'm just so-and-so, and there's 10 books on that subject." Well, but it's not your book. It's not in your voice. It's not from your experience. So get started, get a system and get an accountability partner. And then before you know it, you're going to have... And you know what, and inject that into a marketing plan. Because that's the... We don't want your books in your basement. We want your books out there working for you to build your business and your brand and your bank account.

AJ Roberts (01:03:11):

Thankfully, we live in a time where tools are making everything easier, quicker, faster. The tech is becoming less complicated. Kartra, for example, we already have it done for you, book funnel. You can just import into your campaign and tweak a few things and your book is ready to sell. So like you say, once you have that book, you got to have what's next. And you got to think of that stuff before. So Cliff, it's been a pleasure having you here today. I'm glad we're working together and I always enjoy our conversations. Where can the listeners go to learn more about you and get in contact?

Cliff Pelloni (01:03:45):

Sure. They can just go to ideatoauthorpublishing.com. Just again, it's ideatoauthorpublishing.com. You go there, it'll ask you what publishing path you are on, where you are. If you have a book idea or you've got a manuscript or you had a book and it's not working out. You can get examples of different book covers that we've done, a small sample of some of the book covers, see some stories from people that we published and get more information. So if anybody's interested, it's a great place to start.

AJ Roberts (01:04:13):

Fantastic. Cliff, again, it's been a pleasure. Thanks for having us. Thanks guys for listening. We'll see you guys all on the next episode of Paid to Create podcast.

(01:04:21):

I just have to tell you about Kartra, the marketing platform that has seriously transformed my business. You know how running a business can be insanely time-consuming, right? Well, Kartra has been a game changer for me. It's honestly like having an entire marketing team in my pocket. And what I love most is that it automates all the tedious daily tasks for me, from marketing to sales, to even customer experience. I can't believe how much time and energy I've saved since I started using it. And get this, with Kartra, I can create websites, funnels, courses, membership sites, email campaigns, calendars, surveys. You name it.

(01:04:55):

It's made managing my business so much simpler and more affordable. Honestly, I can't recommend Kartra enough. If you're curious, head to paidtocreatepodcast.com\kartra to start your trial. Trust me, you won't regret it.