015 Harnessing the Magic of Gamification for Your Business with Jeff Sherman

Why do we get hooked so easily on video games and social media? What if we could leverage that to make online education equally addicting? 

In this episode of “Paid to Create,” we are joined by Jeff Sherman, the mastermind behind the cutting-edge platform Numove, to explore how micro learning and gamification are revolutionizing the online educational landscape. 

Breaking down complex information into bite-sized, actionable steps can help learners retain and process information – while skyrocketing engagement and course completion rates. It's not just about digestible chunks of content, however. Add a dash of gamification, and you've got an irresistible formula.

Imagine a learning experience where learners are not just passive recipients but active participants – driven by competition, spurred on by community, and motivated by tangible rewards. Jeff paints a vivid picture of this dynamic landscape, sharing real-life examples from his platform.

We also touch upon the future of online learning, where AI isn't just a buzzword but a tool that personalizes your learning journey. Even so, in this high-tech world, the human touch remains essential. Jeff emphasizes the immeasurable value of personal interactions, feedback, and community building – which remain the cornerstones of long-term customer loyalty and success.

Plus, get a sneak peek into how gaming elements, like badges and points, aren't just shiny trinkets but potent tools of engagement. Jeff shares his insights on building powerful communities around courses and why the next big thing might just be 'chore wars' for kids!

🎧 Dive in and discover how you can harness the power of micro-learning and gamification to transform lives, including your own. Only on "Paid To Create."

Transcript

Jeff Sherman: So with microlearning, it's one action item. If you have a fan page, move on to step two. If you don't have a fan page, here's how you set up a fan page, go do it. Don't go into step two until you completed it. So you watch the video, you might have a couple quiz questions to make sure they understand the key takeaway points, and then the actual action item. But basically you're just teaching them how to get one step closer to what the end result's supposed to be.

Sarah Jenkins: Welcome to the Paid to Create podcast where we dig into the secret strategies of successful creators making a lucrative living. So sit back, relax, and enjoy the show.

AJ Roberts: I just have to tell [00:00:30] you about Kartra, the marketing platform, that has seriously transformed my business. You know how running a business can be insanely time-consuming, right? Well, Kartra has been a game changer for me. It's honestly like having an entire marketing team in my pocket.

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And get this with Kartra. I can create websites, funnels, courses, membership sites, email campaigns, [00:01:00] calendars, surveys, you name it. It's made managing my business so much simpler and more affordable.

Honestly, I can't recommend Kartra enough. If you're curious, head to paidtocreatepodcast.com/kartra to start your trial. Trust me, you won't regret it.

Welcome, everybody. Today's episode of Paid to Create podcast.

I'm AJ Roberts. I'm going to be interviewing extraordinary serial entrepreneur Jeff Sherman.

I've known Jeff forever. His entrepreneurial journey began back in the fitness industry similar to mine in 2001 [00:01:30] and he since explored various domains such as software creation, marketing, and education. He's built several successful gyms, launched information products, and he's founded his own marketing agency.

His latest venture NuMove is an innovative platform that gamifies online learning, making education more engaging and action focused. Really what he's doing is transforming the way we learn, play, and grow.

So Jeff, welcome to the show.

Jeff Sherman: Thanks, man. Thanks for having me back.

AJ Roberts: I'm glad to have you here, man.

We've had a lot of conversations [00:02:00] off-air about this. Obviously, we've been friends for a long time, but it's interesting. You started in fitness, you're in software similar to me specifically really around gamification. I'd love to... Before we dive into gamification, just that journey. How did you end up here from basically owning a gym?

Jeff Sherman: Yeah, for sure. So I started my gym and then didn't have any clue how to grow it and I'm just hustling, passing out flyers, whatever, and that's when [00:02:30] I went to my first marketing event, signed up for a fitness franchise, turned my gym into a fitness bootcamp because that way I'm training hundreds of people at a time instead of just one-on-one or one-on five. Joined an infra group mastermind, started a soccer conditioning program.

And all the skills back then, it was 2007, 2008, people weren't using internet marketing skills for offline marketing for whatever reason. So I learned all these internet marketing skills for my soccer program like SEO and how to leverage [00:03:00] press releases and all this other stuff. And I started applying it to my offline business and just started blowing up.

I had every listing on the first page of Google for Baltimore fitness, Baltimore gyms. And I had my YouTube video, my Facebook page at the time would rank and I had a press release.

Normally, press release for fitness might last two minutes or 30 seconds depending on the keywords. But for local, it would stay only there for months because nobody else was writing a press release about fitness. So I was having some of these other big box gym owners and stuff. They'd see me at Starbucks and trying to hire me and I'm like, "Nah, I'm good." So [00:03:30] at events people would start coming up to me asking me how I'm doing this stuff or whatever.

So actually, you were our first project manager and affiliate manager for me and Justin Blum. We did our first projects called Bootcamp Underground teaching people exactly what we were doing back then.

And that's how that started. We were teaching people how to do it. They started screwing it up. So then we're like, "Let us do it for you." So we started agency.

And then I had needed my own gym for software because I couldn't hold my clients. When I had 300 members, I couldn't hold them accountable to their weight and fat loss goals which [00:04:00] was one of our main selling points is that you're still getting the same level of accountability as you would with a personal trainer but on a group scale and at half the price or a quarter of the price.

So I created Fit Clients, my first software that I created, and that's when I partnered with Bedros Keuilian for that. And then we just grew the agency and the software from there.

AJ Roberts: Yeah, it's interesting. I think that one of the things that so many entrepreneurs have in common is that when you look back the threads that tie everything together, it's really... There's a need for something. And whether that's [00:04:30] a level of service or whether that's a way to systematize so that you're not crazy doing all of these things yourself. It leads you to, "Okay, how do we automate this?" Or "How do we create a system that basically automates the process to get the same result over and over again?"

And it's interesting because so many gyms even today aren't using online strategies for their business. And so many businesses, small businesses, there's still companies that their website's basically a brochure, right?

Jeff Sherman: Yeah, for sure.

AJ Roberts: But one of the things [00:05:00] I think that is unique is how with NuMove essentially what you realize was with information products as well, consumption is huge. People will purchase stuff and they'll purchase a lot of stuff. And the saying is, if a book buyer is a book buyer. So if you're launching a book, you want to go sell it to other people who've purchased a book on the same topic before, right?

Jeff Sherman: Yeah, for sure.

AJ Roberts: So that's a big thing.

But you notice that there's very few people who were actually completing courses. And there's a lot of jokes around that. About [00:05:30] 80% of people don't even open whatever it is they purchase, let alone go through it. And then out of those that do maybe 5% do anything with it. Right?

Jeff Sherman: Yeah.

AJ Roberts: And I know that was a big pain point for you. So what led you to gamification? Was it looking for that solution on how to get more people to take the action, to stick to their programs and those kind of things?

Jeff Sherman: Yeah. So for us, we had a whole suite of products and services. So we had our agency, we were doing masterminds, consulting, live workshops. We were done with you workshops [00:06:00] where they would come and by the time they were done, their Facebook ads would be live, we're teaching them how to set up their ads, stuff like that. And we turned that into a course. So it was like a $2000 course. That way people didn't have to fly out to our event or whatever.

And then what we started noticing was nine out of 10 people that were joining our high level mastermind or coming to the live events had completed the course but only 17% on a $2000 course were finishing. So I was like, "If we can get more people to finish the course, we can get more people into our mastermind, more people to show [00:06:30] up to our workshops, more because..."

And actually, because when they're finishing that, they're getting a result because it was still designed to have their Facebook ads live by the time they were done the course. We still made it to where they learn a little bit.

We still were implementing microlearning which a lot of people weren't... Still don't. They still have hour, hour and a half modules. People consume an hour and they're like, "Where do I go now? I'm overwhelmed. Has 22 action items in an hour and a half and I don't know where to start, so I'll just go and watch the next one and figure it out later."

And then when they get to the end of the course or even end of a book, [00:07:00] they're really excited about what they learn but they have no idea how to start. So then they go get another course, they go get another book, they start feeling good again because the overwhelm is too much for them and they don't... Whether they call it paralysis playing by analysis type thing. So they don't actually do anything. They just keep consuming.

AJ Roberts: Yeah. I think we're all guilty of it and especially myself. I look at my bookshelf, I take some pride, "Oh, I got 10 books on this topic," but in reality, did I need 10 books? Because probably 99% of the book's crossover.

And so [00:07:30] that's like you say, it's really key is that action item. And oftentimes, you do get to an end of a module or something and you're so eager to learn the next one that you don't stop and implement. And a lot of people would be better to stop and take a month to implement than to move on.

Explain the concept of microlearning because you mentioned there obviously there's an hour and a half video, 22 things, but what is microlearning and how can people start up using that with their own courses to just increase consumption and action just from that?

Jeff Sherman: [00:08:00] Yeah, for sure.

Obviously, nowadays, attention spans are the lowest they've ever been. That's why shorts are so popular and get the most views because they're 30 seconds or whatever. So it's the same thing when you go to learn.

If I go to hit play on the video and I see it says 68 minutes and I'm like, "Man, lunch is in 20 minutes. I don't have time to do that right now." So they just stop. "I'll come back to it later." Well, they're never going to have 68 minutes to sit there and watch the whole thing.

And then if they do suffer through it, you're [00:08:30] going to have more than one action item over an hour, probably going to have seven. And they might be taking notes and they might be learning and getting... They learn the first thing, "Oh, man, when I do that, it's going to be awesome." And they get excited and the second thing and then the third thing, and then eventually it starts... They can't keep track of it all and they start getting overwhelmed and again, they do nothing.

So with microlearning, it's one action item. If you were going to... Let's just go back to Facebook, setting up Facebook ads. First thing is you have to have a fan page. If you don't have a fan page, move on to step two. If you don't have a fan page, here's how you set [00:09:00] up a fan page, go do it. Don't go into step two until you completed it. So you watch the video, you might have a couple quiz questions to make sure that you understand the key takeaway points and then the actual action item.

So we try to keep videos. Sometimes, you have to explain more about... But it's still just one action item. But it could be anywhere from a minute and a half up to 10, 12 minutes depending on how complicated it is that one thing is to do. But basically, you're just teaching them how to get one step closer to what the end result's supposed to be.

AJ Roberts: Yeah. Well, what's interesting [00:09:30] about that is I think it's a complete mind shift for most course creators and online educators. And the reason I say that is because oftentimes when you sit down and create your outline, you're so worried about including everything that you know, you forget that the actual most important thing is that someone gets a result from what they're doing.

And you mentioned earlier you noticed this because those that were completing it were moving on to your high level coaching and masterminds. Those who weren't would disappear [00:10:00] which meant you had to go find a new client.

And I always say, if you've been in business for long enough, you shouldn't be searching for where your next client is going to come from. Your own clients should be not only helping your business grow through additional monetization but bringing new people in through their own actions.

And it's interesting because I think the future with the way things are going, really, unless you get an outcome, the information you're [00:10:30] learning is going to become almost useless and you're not even going to be out of charge for it because it's pretty much out there everywhere.

So it's the ability, the coaching, accountability side of the knowledge industry, the expert industry which is really going to make or break people. Can you get people to do what you're saying and is what you're saying actually work? We're going to find out because you're not going to be able to count on people not doing it anymore. So you're going to be exposed if what you're teaching isn't actually working.

That said, [00:11:00] I could still with micro content sit and watch 22 videos that are five minutes each, right? How do we prevent people from that? You mentioned a little bit with quizzes and things like that, but what aspects gets them to create action versus just rewards them to consume the content?

Jeff Sherman: Well, with my platform that we created, the last step is the action items. So say, in one of our self-help games, it's called Limitless, one of the level is a run, walk, or crawl two miles. You have 24 hours, just go do it.

Most entrepreneurs says they're too busy. [00:11:30] It's one of the first things they put off is their health and fitness. So you just go out, run, walk, or crawl two miles, you can either do a map my run screenshot to prove that you did it or when you're all sweaty, you take a video, be like, "Hey, I just finished the run, walk, crawl level. I feel great and I start implementing this into my weekly routine two or three times a week or whatever. And all right, see you guys on the next level." You submit that so everybody can see. So that's proof that you actually took action.

It could be filling out a worksheet, it could be a screenshot, it could be a video, whatever the course owner or the game owner wants, to require them [00:12:00] to prove that they took action and learn what it is that they were learning.

AJ Roberts: I assume they can't move forward-

Jeff Sherman: Exactly.

AJ Roberts: Okay. So there's almost that.

Yeah, my buddy Simon Lovell, he was on one of the podcasts, early podcasts we did, but he's built that into a lot of what he does where it's like you get locked out if you don't... You have to do the homework and if you don't do the homework, you get locked out.

You mentioned them posting that. Is that going to a community? Is there a community aspect to this to build?

Jeff Sherman: Yeah. So the three things that I learned to get people all the way through the content is community [00:12:30] collaboration and then incentives. So we incorporate all three of those. Incentives is more of your gaming elements. Community is more like a Facebook group because what's the one thing every course owner out there offers as a bonus? Access to our exclusive Facebook group, right? Because they see the value in community.

But what happens... Well, what we notice with our own Facebook communities is that people will ask a question in there and half the people in there would be like, "That's in module three. You didn't do that? If you did module three, you would already know the answer." They wouldn't log into course and learn it themselves. They wanted a shortcut. So they would [00:13:00] ask people in the group for the answers and stuff.

So we just took the Facebook group and put it into the platform. So we have a timeline. You can DM each other in there. You can create DM groups inside so that people can collaborate for different things. You can go live in the timeline inside the actual platform. So you're getting all that engagement.

And everything's transparent. When you take a normal course, you don't know if you're the only one taking the course. You don't know if there's a thousand people taking the course. It's very static. And if you take the quiz, you don't know if anybody sees the answer or cares about the answer. There's nothing. And if you stop taking [00:13:30] the course, is anybody going to call you, is anybody going to say, "Hey, what happened?" There's no accountability in most courses. So we've incorporated all that in there as well. So you actually see other people's answers.

And that's good and bad. Some people are pretty shy, but it also takes away the creative burden. So if I ask you to answer something and you know everybody's going to see it, you might be like... It's like, "I'm going to make sure I have the right answer," but they see 30 other answers, examples in front of them like, "That sounds like what I would say." And they'll just like-

AJ Roberts: [00:14:00] Got you.

Jeff Sherman: ... put it in there, which is cool. They're still learning and they're seeing the other examples and it might get a different perspective from somebody else's answer or whatever.

AJ Roberts: Do you find that community aspect in some ways can create almost competition for different people to... I'm thinking there's going to always be that person who wants to give the best answer and there's going to be the person who is looking at well, who started this course around the same time, what are they achieving, can I top what they're doing. Do you find that's a piece of this?

Jeff Sherman: Well, that's part of it. We have a built in leaderboard. [00:14:30] So we have a seven-day leaderboard, a 30-day leaderboard, then a lifetime leaderboard because if you log in in your module one and you see the person that's top of the leaderboard has 3000 points and you're only getting 10 points per thing, you're like, "I'm never going to get the level. I'm never going to be the top."

But if you look at the seven-day leaderboard, you're like, "Ooh, they only got 35, 40 points. I can get there in three or four days. I'm going to hustle and try to get the top of the seven-day leaderboard." When you get to day eight, you're looking out to the 30-day leaderboard. "Okay, I can get to the top of the 30-day leaderboard." And then after that would be the lifetime one.

Oh, yeah, that's the whole point is [00:15:00] creating competition because as human beings, as my late business partner used to say is we weren't born for competition, we were born from competition. It was a billion person race and to the death and you won.

AJ Roberts: That's a great point.

I'm thinking about... You've mentioned several things, but people listening, it's really thinking about... And this is something that I've been hopping on a lot recently. Most people think the customer journey ends at the sale which is hilarious because the word [00:15:30] customer doesn't start until there is a sale. So customer journey really is prospect journey and then what's the customer journey?

And so if they've purchased something, the journey should be for them to use that thing and to get the result that they were promised. And that's not only going to help you but it's going to help them.

And when you look at it, most people think delivering the course is living up to the promise. And when you get into what you're talking about, [00:16:00] I hope people are realizing, "Okay, the course is a component of the course," that the educational material is a component of the course. You also have to have the actionable material and that's going to separate you moving forward especially with AI and things like that. I can just ask it. I don't need to buy a course necessarily, right? But if I'm just consuming and then someone comes along and says, "Oh, not only will you learn, but you'll also do this."

Jeff Sherman: Yeah, you develop a skill as you go through it.

AJ Roberts: Yeah. And you-

Jeff Sherman: With other people.

AJ Roberts: And you [00:16:30] have 93% people who purchase this end up with higher level clients because of completion rates or whatever the stats are, but those are powerful. And so you've got to look at that, how do you actually get them to take action, what action items do you want them to take and what those are. Then you've got the community aspect so that they get to be on this quest with other people. And I think that shared experience is huge in today's world.

Jeff Sherman: No, for sure.

Look at... If I put out an hour [00:17:00] video teaching about a topic, you probably aren't going to sit down and watch it. But as you know webinars, it's an event. You're there, you can see there's like, "Hey, we have 135 people on this event, on this webinar." They feel like they're there with somebody with other people experiencing it together so they don't want to miss out.

It's like, "Oh, man, my friend's going to be on this webinar too," even though they're not even in the same state because they're going to ask you questions about it later. "Hey, did you see that one part about the webinar?" Or whatever like, "No, I missed it." "Oh, you should have been on there." So there's [00:17:30] all that.

There's fear of missing out from an event rather than it's an hour video they can watch any time. Even though there's a replay. If you look at the replay rates, nobody watches a replay.

AJ Roberts: Well, that's an interesting point because we've tested just a video on a page versus a video inside a webinar room, whether it's live or automated, but at a specific time. That's the key is-

Jeff Sherman: With other people on there at the same time-

AJ Roberts: And with other people.

Jeff Sherman: ... even if it's automated, there's still an event.

AJ Roberts: Exactly. Because it's live. And hands down, the video on the page loses to the webinar or the event environment.

[00:18:00] But also if you think about TV shows, people have watch parties. Well, why? You literally... Once it's released, you can watch it anytime. And if you have Netflix, they've dropped 12 episodes all at once. But it's because they want to be able to watch it and discuss it immediately, be the first to go to Facebook and give the... There's so much around that that we don't necessarily need to always understand it just to know that it works. So we have the community aspect that really helps with that.

And then you [00:18:30] briefly touched on the reward component. How does that factor into people actually wanting to take action?

Jeff Sherman: So incentives are everything. That's one of the main reasons... It's like pleasure or pain. If you're at your job, you're motivated by getting promotion but you're also motivated by not getting fired. Probably more motivated by not getting fired. More people do what they have to do to not get fired. So that both are incentives and positive and negative incentives.

So you want to incentivize [00:19:00] as much as possible. Even Elon Musk, I use this quote all the time, he's like, "The more that you can gamify learning the better." The more that you can incentivize, the better.

So we've incentivized everything we possibly could. When you make your first comment, you're going to get a first comment badge. The first time you like somebody's post or whatever, you're going to get a like badge. When you finish a level, you're going to get a level badge. When you finish a stage, you're going to get a stage badge.

You can also earn tangible items. You can give away a water bottle, you can give away a hat, [00:19:30] T-shirt, a journal. You can give away digital products that can get access to exclusive live training.

We've also done streak badges. So if you play for seven days in a row, then you become a bronze medal player, you play for 14 days in a row, then you become a silver medal player, and then 21 days in a row gold medal player.

And that's powerful just by itself. But if you put something behind that makes it even more powerful. "Hey, for gold medal players, you're going to get 20% off our next event," or whatever. Or "For gold medal players this week we're doing a special live bonus training on how to do X, Y, Z." [00:20:00] So you can put more power behind the actual things that they're earning.

And same with actual tangible prizes. Rather than just being a journal... One of the things I learned also from my late business partner, he was really good at this, is putting this story and meaning behind the journal so that way they're not just getting a notebook. He talks about the greats like Tesla and Da Vinci. He's like, "Their journals are being used hundreds of years later. Who's going to be talking about your journal? Who's going to be using your journal a hundred years later? So now it's not just a journal, it's like your legacy you're writing in [inaudible 00:20:27]."

AJ Roberts: It becomes a sacred-

Jeff Sherman: Right, exactly.

AJ Roberts: Sacred document.

Jeff Sherman: [00:20:30] Yeah, exactly.

So the more that you can incentivize, the better.

Even with that Limitless game at the end, we were giving away Movado watches, but they had to come to an event, we present it to them, and yeah, it ended up...

The watches were like 350, 400 bucks. It was a $2000 course, but only 41% were completing it. So it was like we are getting a discount because everybody's paying the 2000 expecting to get the watch and then only 41% finish. And then out of that 41%, only a certain amount would come to the workshops to actually present them. [00:21:00] But people see us giving these custom watches out to Limitless logo in there that incentivize, that motivates other people to at least try.

AJ Roberts: Yeah. What's interesting is one of the dirty secrets of information marketing or the course industry is that very few people make a living off of the course. It really is a customer acquisition tool. And if you can break even on it, fantastic.

So the reason I share [00:21:30] that is you mentioned earlier the $2000 price point. If someone pays $2000 for something and you can give that $2000 back to them throughout the course but they get the result that you promised, I guarantee you the lifetime value of that person skyrockets but also the referrals they'll bring and things like that.

And so sometimes you have to think beyond the original transaction. And I think that as we move forward, the concept of a thousand true fans, [00:22:00] and for those that are not familiar with that, just google search it, because that could be a whole podcast on itself.

But the concept of a thousand true fans is going to become more and more true where they're going to have these essential micro tribes and it might not even be a thousand. We might be getting down to 100, 150... Go back to Dunbar's Law. I think that's what it is.

But essentially, the reality is it's the impact that you can make that will fuel your finances moving forward. And [00:22:30] if you're not making that impact on that first impression which a lot of the times these courses are the first indoctrination into you and everything you stand for, imagine someone gives you their money, they're all enthusiastic, you know you have [inaudible 00:22:42] value to help them but then they don't do it. That person now will go search for somebody else to plug into-

Jeff Sherman: Exactly.

AJ Roberts: ... where they could have been a lifetime customer for yourself.

So seems like these things are not... They're called gamification and it sounds fun but in reality, all we're doing [00:23:00] is holding their hand and using things that naturally get them to take more action versus trying to just explain to them, "Hey, if you do this, it's going to change your life." Okay, we know the power of this, so we're actually going to incentivize you to do it until you get enough momentum where you're actually now coming to us and saying, "Okay, what else do you have?" Because...

And I think you mentioned this before when we talked at one of the masterminds we were at, [00:23:30] people take the courses and then say, "I've never implemented this much stuff," or "I've never bought something and then at the end of it been like, 'Oh my gosh, I did all of it." Right?

Jeff Sherman: Yeah.

AJ Roberts: It's transformational in that sense.

Jeff Sherman: No, for sure.

So you have the reward incentives. We also have entertainment incentives. So just piques curiosity. In copy, curiosity is one of the stronger ways to get people to take action.

So when they complete a level, it'll say, "Congratulations," big certificate will come up and the confetti will fall through the screen and the [00:24:00] next level when they do it, it might be the strong arm emoji. The next one might be the cool face emoji. So like, "What's going to fall through the screen next?"

So they're force multipliers. It's a little bump because it's piquing their curiosity. So that would be called... That'd be under entertainment incentives.

And then the last one, which is usually the most powerful one, is emotional incentives. As a human being, what do you like to hear the most? "Good job, AJ." So that's something that you can't-

AJ Roberts: Praise and recognition.

Jeff Sherman: ... [inaudible 00:24:25]. Well, with AI, you can probably do it now, but you do have to facilitate. If you look at the Facebook groups that are out there that [00:24:30] are really good, it's all about the facilitator. If they're in there like, "Awesome job," and "Oh, man, so cool." And so and so. Or "Join me in congratulating our newest members," or whatever.

Anytime you can just say somebody's name and good job, you're going to get a boost out of them. They're going to want to get that again. And then somebody else is going to be like, "Man, they never said my name and good job. So I got to do something to get him to say my name and good job." So they're going to start helping other people out more, whatever you said good job for to the other person, you're going to see a lot of other people starting to do the same action because of that.

AJ Roberts: Yeah. I learned that on stages. When you would put people [00:25:00] on stages, everybody else that knew you would be like, "Hey, how come you got on stage? How do I get on?" It's because they want that recognition. And when there's an audience, also there's that level of leadership that comes through. They want...

Most people want who are lifetime learners, I call them, they want to be leaders. They want to showcase that they're a man of action or a woman of action. It's one of those things where they don't want to sit at the back of the class in this instance because we're not talking about [00:25:30] just some small little thing. We're talking about stuff that whether it's in fitness or finances or their relationships or their spirituality, their faith, talking about things that literally shift them and generationally shift their families.

And so if you put that on your shoulders and you think, "Okay, they're buying this for this purpose and this could change the entire trajectory of the history for this human," that's a weight on your shoulders as a creator. And now [00:26:00] to be able to leverage all of these things, you're like... It's not like you are everyday going, "Good job." You're not in there.

And I think that's the thing that becomes overwhelming for creators is that they want to do all of this stuff, but when they realize the time it takes, and that's where you have to bring in automation and things like that. And like you said, look for all those things and...

You see this with social media all the time. All of a sudden there's new emojis that you can respond to people with. So even that side of stuff, how is your community interacting and [00:26:30] can they bring each other up, do you have natural leaders in the community, are they showcased, these are all things to think about because like you said, just your community is actually driving completion too, right?

Jeff Sherman: Yep.

AJ Roberts: Because people are looking at them and going, "Well, if they can do it, I can do it." And good or bad, that's one thing with coaching programs and masterminds that fires me up is I meet somebody and I think to myself, "Man, they're really not more intelligent than me. They're not... They don't have a better life than me, [00:27:00] but they've done this," like, "Oh, I can do it too."

And I've always said that if you got to shift your reality. And I think that once you see a new reality, you can go, "Oh, okay." So when they're in this group, the course, if they're isolated, they're at home and they're just going through the course watching the videos and maybe you've put a workbook together because you've gone a little bit further than most people and they're writing their answers down but there's no one to compare to, there's nobody to check answers against. They don't have a guide, right?

Jeff Sherman: Yep.

AJ Roberts: You're building this all in. But [00:27:30] from a creative standpoint, they're not having to do much.

Jeff Sherman: Exactly.

AJ Roberts: Right? What [inaudible 00:27:35]-

Jeff Sherman: They don't have to do much more than what they've already would've done.

AJ Roberts: Yeah.

Jeff Sherman: Yeah.

AJ Roberts: So you said these are subtle nudges that play to human nature that allows them to progress through that.

Is there any examples of courses on NuMove that you are super proud of, that you could walk through so that those listening who trying to piece this all together can visualize it?

Jeff Sherman: Yeah. The one I keep [00:28:00] referring to is Mark Hoverson who was my founding member of NuMove. He passed away in 2018, 2019. Can't remember exactly what year.

His game was Limitless. He was youth minister. In the beginning, was called emerging entrepreneurs. A lot of his students or doing 10 to a hundred million dollars a month in some of their groups and some of their products and services. And one guy's in solar. And he is doing a ton of money. These guys were all millennially, a young man, he was a youth pastor and they changed the name to Limitless and then he opened it up to everybody.

But that's a [00:28:30] really good... I still think it's the best because he's the one that pretty much taught me all about it and how to build games and what makes them so powerful, creating that storyline, creating a map. So they're going through a good journey.

So yeah, he was big on creating a map so they could see what their journey's going to look like. And he would give creative names, different valleys of this or the woods of this, or he would name everything really, really cool. Like a video game. You always see a map that you have to go through like Legend of Zelda or something. So he's [00:29:00] done a really good job at that.

And since then, it's me teaching or consulting somebody to build a game and then me teaching somebody else.

But we have a lot of really cool games on there. We have one that's called Pros Shooter Game. It's a handgun course. Their name is Aalphalina. Her shooting name is the female John Wick. She's out in Vegas. That's a cool game.

We have another one Epic Author. It's like how to profit from your book idea without writing a single word. So he is teaching you how to come up with a title, you come up with everything and you're getting podcasts and speaking gigs and all this stuff [00:29:30] before you even write a single word. And his whole thing is your book's already out there. You just have to make sure you frame it the right way. So we want to make sure by putting out the title and getting booked on podcasts, talking about the topic, and then eventually writing the book. Writing the right book is what it's about. It's a really good one.

And then another one, we took a five-day challenge and turned it into a game. It's called a Tag Challenge, appointment generator challenge. That's a good one.

So we have a bunch of... Any kind of how to is a perfect fit. Anything that you learn linearly, [00:30:00] that's step one, step two, step three is a perfect fit.

We do have a solar company that uses it for new employee training and then they use it for their sales teams as well.

AJ Roberts: That's a unique way to use it. Yeah.

So it sounds like regardless of whether you have a course or you're thinking about creating a course, you really need to think of it in terms of... You mentioned the map. I love that. Right? That's the quest. Where's point A? Where's point B? If we're going to set a GPS to go across the United States, [00:30:30] we're going to go through a whole bunch of states, a whole bunch of towns. And really that's what we're trying to... If you are going to use gamification, you really need to look at breaking your content down into those micro steps as you mentioned.

What is... Let's say I have a course right now and I do want to gamify it. What is that process? Because obviously it's probably not in that linear format right now.

Jeff Sherman: Yeah. If you created a course, you probably created somewhat of a linear format probably. But in gamification, [00:31:00] what we want to do is get them to take a little bit of action and get a result right away and feel good about it.

So in the Pro Shooter game, the first one is creating your shooter name because everybody that's Pro Shooter has their shooter name or whatever. And then she was just like, "If you don't come up with anything or people think it's stupid or whatever, then..." You know how people do, "What's your stripper name?" It's like, "What was the name of your first dog I'm sure you grew up on?" Or whatever. So we did something like that just so they could have something.

But they put the name in there and then they [00:31:30] get the 10 points and then they got their first level badge, they feel good. "Oh, man, I'm already on the leaderboard." And then the next one is you ask a little bit more and ask a little bit more. Or you get to level 35 or 40, it might take you a full day or two or three days to finish it.

And Limitless, one of the ones, it's called A Million Dollar Day. And so what you do-

AJ Roberts: I like the sound of that.

Jeff Sherman: You list out everything that you've been putting off. So going to the dentist or cleaning out your garage or making all these phone calls [00:32:00] for work or following up with this or anything, you just keep procrastinating on. You make this huge list.

And then you have to go and collaborate. You have to find... We call a big... In fraternities, you have a big brother, big sister, but they're going to hold you accountable for that million dollar day. And then you just go through and just knock everything out. And it's like you get a million dollars worth in a day of stuff done kind of thing.

But it takes two or three days. You have to find that accountability partner. You have to write everything out. Then you actually have to do the million dollar day. Yes.

AJ Roberts: But [inaudible 00:32:26] I think's very interesting. I've never thought of it like this before. Like you [00:32:30] said when you create a course oftentimes or I just sent my first draft of the book off to the editor, you don't think of it in terms of the length of action for each item.

And I think that's key because what you are leveraging there is momentum. If the first item you ask them to take takes them three days, they're probably never going to do it. Right?

Jeff Sherman: They stop. Yeah.

AJ Roberts: But if it takes them 10 minutes or 30 minutes max, it's vastly different.

And the cool thing is... [00:33:00] Obviously, I'm a big fan of AI. I'm sure you are too.

Jeff Sherman: Yeah.

AJ Roberts: But the cool thing is you could have them immediate, like you said, for name ideas. You use the whole stripper in the street. You can do this stuff now where you can say, "Hey, go to ChatGTP and ask it for 10 name ideas." Insert your idea, your topic, what you want it to do, and generate names so you can give them tasks that take 10 minutes.

Jeff Sherman: Yeah.

AJ Roberts: And I think that's a really unique way to think about it because if you're trying to get somebody to... [00:33:30] We'll use building a website for an example. If you're trying to get someone to write an entire sales letter-

Jeff Sherman: Well, that's what... I want to create a game that by the time you're done playing the game, your sales letter's written.

AJ Roberts: Right.

Jeff Sherman: Perfect.

AJ Roberts: But you start saying, "Okay, we're going to write this whole thing," versus we're going to brainstorm some headlines. Right?

Jeff Sherman: Exactly.

AJ Roberts: And I think that that is unique.

And I think why it's so important, and the reason I'm was excited to have you on today is because the future of course creators, the future of online learning is dramatically going to change. [00:34:00] And these are the kind of things I think give people the advantage because if they can start thinking now, "Okay, I've got all of this material," but what's the thing they can do to get the fastest result?

And you may not always just be the fastest, maybe the one that has the biggest ROI to them, with whatever it is. Because like you said... You mentioned microlearning, this is kind of micro action. And if we can get them to take the mini action, then we can add just a little bit, just a little bit. By the end of it, they're such a force behind them [00:34:30] and such an energy behind them because everything they've done has built to this what... They'll spend the three days doing the task because it's not the first thing you've asked for. It's come 37 lessons later.

Jeff Sherman: No, for sure.

And you're just conditioning them to take action. So they're just getting more and more disciplined as they go through.

It's a persuasion thing too. They use it for POW camps and stuff. That's how you get POWs that are writing these long letters against their country or whatever because they don't just ask them to write the letter, they'll just ask them, "Just tell us what your name is and [00:35:00] we'll feed you." "Tell us what your name is and what country you're from," the next day, "Tell us what your name is, what your country is from, and then tell us one thing you don't like about your country."

And eventually, by the time they're done, they given this big statement about how horrible their country is and they don't even believe because it's one thing at a time. And then they're like, "Well, I already said that. I might as well just add one more thing to it." But obviously, that's a bad way to use it.

And a positive way is the same thing. "I've already did all this, so I might as well just do a little bit more to get [00:35:30] closer to my goal."

And the good thing about the platform is you can see where that drop off is because it's like 30% got to here. Level one, you got 90% completion rate. Level two, you got 87% completion rate. Level three, you got 67. Wait a second, why is there 20% drop?

So in one of the first games that I created for myself, I licensed Craig's Perfect Day Formula and we created Play Perfect Life. And you put some of his stuff in there and one of them was like, "No matter where you are in your career, your [00:36:00] life, whatever, you haven't gotten there by yourself. So it's really important to thank people. So you need to write us letter and mail it to somebody that's helped you get to where you are today."

It was like crickets. Nobody was... Like, "What?" Nobody mails stuff anymore.

AJ Roberts: Where do I get a stamp in an envelope?

Jeff Sherman: Yeah, exactly. I got to stop and buy a stamp. I got to go buy an envelope. So we change it to text somebody and goes right off. Everybody keeps moving along again. So we asked too soon, maybe if we put it later in the game, they probably would've did it, but it was the third level or something like that. And it was just way too [00:36:30] big of an ask too soon.

AJ Roberts: I like the fact that you're going back after it's launched and using that data to improve it, right?

Because in Kartra, people can see the consumption from their customers, they can see where they are percentage wise, you can set triggers, you can do those kind of things. But I like the way you are using it where it's like, "Okay, we need to change this. It's too hard for people to do."

And I think that that's... When you're looking at KPI, when you're looking at metrics of success, if you're a course creator, obviously, you are looking at [00:37:00] client acquisition, you're looking at revenue and you're going, "Oh, yeah, the company's growing."

But this side of things... Your company's growing, but is it growing because you have a great product that people are using? Or is it growing because you got really good at marketing and sales? Right? Because after a while you're going to run out of people to sell to.

Even the biggest things you see on Shark Tank and those products that come in, they get in Walmart, they're generic, they're huge. They got one to two years shelf life and then they're on the discount for [00:37:30] 75% off because no matter whether you have a small audience or absolutely... There is a level at which you're going to tap out of.

And I would rather much beyond the side of creating incredible customers that want to continue to do business with you because then you don't have to go get so many on those front. But using that data on the backend and saying...

Even now if they don't have gamification, they could be looking at this.

Jeff Sherman: Oh, for sure.

AJ Roberts: Even from a video standpoint, what's the completion rate of the video? Where's the drop off? [00:38:00] What are the things?

And I think that people are so scared of not putting enough information in that they put too much information in and then they expect people, like a podcast, people are in their car...

Most people aren't sitting down in their home, in front of their computer say, "Okay, now I'm going to watch a podcast." They're consuming it while they're moving, right? They're consuming it in the car, they're consuming it while they're walking. And so when you take these things into factors, they'll listen to stuff longer than they would if they were watching [00:38:30] a course or watching a video.

And I think that's important to understand. If someone's purchased a course, they're probably going to take the time to sit, whether it's on the desktop or whether it's on the mobile. Nowadays, everybody uses their mobile for everything. But if they're not getting through that first video and they're not taking action on that first action item, we have a problem, Houston, right?

Jeff Sherman: Yeah.

AJ Roberts: Because they're not getting to the, you mentioned, 76 levels, right?

Jeff Sherman: Yeah.

AJ Roberts: And I think it's cool because I remember back when I was a kid playing Sonic the Hedgehog and the levels and all of those things and yeah, you do look for cheat codes, [00:39:00] but at the end of the day you realize, "No, I got to do it by myself." And I think that from a creative standpoint, what you're sharing is invaluable and really important from a user standpoint.

And I'm leading you because I know the answer. But from the completion rate, what is the difference that you have seen from just a regular course versus a course that is fully gamified?

Jeff Sherman: Yeah. So from our own personal course statistics on a free course it's less... It's about [00:39:30] a percent that's going to finish on a free course. And if you go to Udemy or some of the top tier schools that give out free courses and stuff, people will register for them and not even open or look at the first thing and then not do it.

So for ours, ours was a $2000 course. We were getting 17% completion rate before the gamification stuff. Once we added in the community, the collaboration, all the incentives went from 17% to 41%. And that's just on the front end.

Because for us, we were like, "If somebody pays $2000 for a course [00:40:00] and they don't finish it." It's that course when they log in, they see it on their browser, they're open tab, whatever, they're like, "There's my $2000 sitting right there. I'll get back to it at some point." And then they see a video of you marketing an event and they're like, "Yeah, I really don't want to spend the four grand or whatever to go to this workshop. I want to finish the course first," even though they're never going to finish the course.

If they paid 2000 and didn't get a result or a skill that's helping them generate more cash or generate more business, they're not going to come to an event. But if they get through your course and they actually [00:40:30] have a new skill and they're excited about, they're showing their friends or their ads are bringing people in. And then you run a workshop where they're like, "Man, if I got this from this, I'm going to get way more from that." It's like the next obvious step. You always want to create the next obvious step.

Like Apple. You're looking at your MacBook right now. It's the perfect company to look at. I'm sure... If you have an iPhone, you might have an Apple Watch, you probably have a MacBook, probably have a couple iPads. You have all these different Apple products because it's the next Apple.

If I have an iPhone, the next obvious step is to get an Apple Watch because they go together, they work together. [00:41:00] The Apple Watch makes it... You don't have to have your phone on you anymore. You can just take your watch. If you're riding your bike or working out, you got your music, you don't miss any calls. So it's like the next obvious step is to get the next thing. That's what you want to create.

AJ Roberts: Yeah. You mentioned something there I think is very important and that's you actually limit your ability to move people or send people, however, you want to say, but move people along that journey with you. If they buy something and they don't take action, it's as good as if they buy something and fail. [00:41:30] Right? Because ultimately their experience, like you said, "Well, I'm not going to do the event because I still have the course to go through." So it actually stops them from giving you more money or stops them from joining the things that would actually help them even more because in their mind they're not ready yet. Right?

Jeff Sherman: Yes. But what it doesn't stop them from is buying your competitors' thing.

AJ Roberts: Yes. Because they think they-

Jeff Sherman: It's different.

AJ Roberts: It's different. They get all that emotional dopamine release, everything when they purchase. They also [00:42:00] think that maybe it's... Everybody, and we all do it, even I do it, even at the highest level, you're always looking for hacks and shortcuts. You're always looking for ways to improve your morning routine, improve your nutrition. You're constantly...

I remember when I came back to start competing again, I'm looking at all of the new guys who are at the top and I'm wanting to know how they train and da, da, da, da. And Dave Hoff, who is arguably the greatest lifter of all times, he's been at the top now for over a decade. Nobody can beat him. He just said, "AJ [00:42:30] know how to train. What are you doing? Just train the way we used to train." And I was asking him, "What's changed?" He's like, "Nothing. Nothing's changed." Things like... yeah, you get new little tricks here and there, but it's just the basics. And I think that that's really, really key.

But what's interesting is that I think if people think about this from the beginning, what they'll do is not only be able to create a course that's much more powerful, but actually have an easier time creating the course because they won't be worried about how much information I can get in.

And that's one big thing. I know [00:43:00] you push a lot on, it's never about the consumption.

Jeff Sherman: No, for sure. And I learned this from Bedros. And if you go to the dentist and you have a tooth that's aching and he is like, "It's going to be a thousand bucks. I can take eight hours to extract a tooth and make you feel better, or I can do it in five minutes, which one do you want?" You just want the pain gone. "I want the five-minute one, I don't want to go through all the fluff. I don't want to sit there for eight hours just because I want to get my value."

So if I give you a hundred-page manual on how to make $10,000 a day, if I give you a two-page manual on how to make $10,000 a day, [00:43:30] which one you're going to pick? The two-page one, right? Because you just want to make $10,000 a day. So the least amount-

AJ Roberts: [inaudible 00:43:36].

Jeff Sherman: ... I've learned that from Kevin Nations too. He says the same thing. It's about what they're getting. It's not about how much... And you might be able to sell more when you put 25 bonuses or whatever, but that's only on the front end. If you get results for people, they'll be with you forever, right?

AJ Roberts: Yeah. Being a deep learner, that's sometimes hard to understand because I always want to know more about things. So there's always that [00:44:00] like, "Oh, okay, well, now I need to know if I'm talking about this, then this goes with that." So then you start building essentially down.

But you forget that the reality is that whatever reason they bought, let's say make money because that's the easy one to use like, "I want to make 10,000 a month," that's all they need to learn is how to make 10,000 a month. They don't need to learn anything else. They don't need how to learn how to scale to 20 million or whatever. There may be a module at the end or something at the end that's [00:44:30] beyond 10,000 a month. It leads to the next thing. But the more specific it could be, the better.

And it's crazy because we always have these examples. You just mentioned the dentist, but when you think about, specialists, specialists always charge way more. But everybody when they get into business is a generalist. They're like, "Well, who do you help?" "Well, I help these people and these people and these people and these..."

And a lot of that's out of fear, right? Because they don't see the pool for their audience. They don't have the reach for the specific niche or person that they want. And so they generalize [00:45:00] to fill the bucket, right? Because they're like, "Okay, you'll get money from these people and these people," and they never realize that it's the specialization.

And add to that, what you've mentioned is it's not only specialization, but speed of implementation. And if you can shorten the gaps on those, people would just keep paying you because hypothetically, if they spent 2000 and you teach them how to make 10, right? They've profited eight grand. Do you think they'll give you 10,000 for you to learn how to go from 10 to a hundred? Probably. Right?

So like [00:45:30] you said, it's this micro learning, micro action that gives them more commitment to you, makes them want to invest more money with you versus if you ask them upfront for those large fees, they'll probably be like, "No, I'm good." But once they get the result, the level of trust goes through the roof with you.

Jeff Sherman: Exactly. It's just any other relationship. You're married, so you know how it goes. If you ask her to marry her on the first day, she's probably going to say no. Right? But you want to make it the next obvious steps.

AJ Roberts: If she said yes, you should run the other way. Red flag warning guys. Red flag.

Jeff Sherman: [00:46:00] You start dating, she has fun, she gets a result. We've been together, everything's good, she gets a result. You get a dog together, everything's good, you get a result. Next obvious step, let's get married. Of course. Look, I'm not... Don't need to think about it. So it's just anything else. Relationships are relationships, whether it's business, personal. Yeah.

AJ Roberts: I'm laughing because one of the guys I trained with, joking with him the other day, he says his girlfriend's birthday. I said, "You going to propose?" And he's like, "Huh?" And I was like, "How long you been together?" He's like, "Seven years." I go, "Bro, she is waiting. [00:46:30] I guarantee you she is waiting. There is no way that she's not ready for that." Because anyone that puts up with anyone else for seven years is probably good enough to-

Jeff Sherman: I think so.

AJ Roberts: Yeah. So that's a good point.

And I think people need to look at that. But that's a shift that I think needs to happen. A gamification helps this happen. But the shift that needs to happen is people need to see their customers as people and realize that success really now is in the relationship business. Yes, marketing's important, [00:47:00] sales is important. You need to learn how to do those. But if you are not building relationships with your customers, then they will go to competitors because that is becoming more and more something that keeps people loyal to the creator is the community.

Jeff Sherman: Yeah. The sales and the marketing is aesthetics, how it looks. It attracts them initially. It's the loyalty, it's the results. It's the feeling comfortable, feeling safe to give you to invest more with you, that's what keeps them around long term.

AJ Roberts: Yeah. [00:47:30] Where do you think the future of courses are going with gamification in AI and those kind of things? If we had to predict, it's hard to predict longer than a year, but moving forward, what are the big things people should be looking at when it comes to these things?

Jeff Sherman: It depends on what you want AI to do for you. It can do all kinds of things. So if you want it to interact, me personally, I like to interact as much for real as I can because then you're getting the feedback, you're learning what your customers like, what they don't like. You're involved in the relationship. It's not [00:48:00] like...

I've heard some comedian talking about how he had ChatGPT write a birthday card or whatever. He has no idea what was in it. And the girlfriend's super happy about like, "Oh my gosh, this's the nicest card ever." But he has no idea. "What does it say?"

AJ Roberts: Hey. That's how I feel at Christmas when people open presents with my name are on.

Jeff Sherman: Right.

AJ Roberts: "What do you get over there?" "That was from you." "Oh, is it? Oh, okay, cool. Great."

Jeff Sherman: Exactly. So I think that would hurt you long term in business

But AI, like you were saying earlier, you could use it for them as an assignment, go to ChatGPT and do this and [00:48:30] come back with your answer. Or people are using it to create courses. You can create a whole course with AI right now.

I actually wrote a book just to see how it all worked and it was good, but it wasn't personal. And I think that's the one thing that can't be replaced as we know is you are the only you. So putting your story in there, your life experience, stuff like that can't be replaced. I think everything else probably will be.

AJ Roberts: Yeah. I think one of the things I've used it for that as you're talking like you mentioned, it's not about the [00:49:00] length, it's about the depth. And sometimes, you can say something way quicker than you do. In podcast format, we're in conversation, but if we went back and watched this whole thing, we can edit it down to probably a 10 minutes of bullet point content which in this format wouldn't go over well usually.

But I think one of the things that you could use it for very successfully is, let's say you have videos and you're noticing your drop-off rates are at 50%. You [00:49:30] could take that script, dump it into ChatGTP and ask it to rewrite it as a simplest script or simplify it down or half it in length but keep all the most important things. So you could use it to refine things-

Jeff Sherman: Yeah, I've already been... When I was writing the book, I was using it that way because I would ask some topics or whatever I wanted to write on, it would come out with three pages. It's rewrite previous output with 50% more words and then just give me fluff. But it still made sense. [00:50:00] So you can use it that way. Or you can make it 30% funnier, quirkier, then rewrite it in a different tone. So there's lots of ways that you can prompt it to fit whatever it is that you're trying to do.

AJ Roberts: I look at it really a lot as a research assistant. So it's like you said. If you wrote something and you go, "Okay, I want to make this better," you couldn't just ask, "How do I make this better? What should I include?" And then you could say, "Okay, great. Now let's come up with..." If it says, "Oh, it [00:50:30] should have a quote." Okay, great. Give me 20 quotes by famous people about this topic. Boom, there you go.

So it's one of those things where if you interact with it, like you mentioned, it can make those changes. Obviously, at some point in the future probably just do all of that, you put it in, you just say rewrite and boom, you get what you want. But that conversation back and forth I think really helps.

But I think in terms of the courses and things like that, you could even take it and say... Let's say you have a course right now and we'll use video because most people create video courses, [00:51:00] get that transcribed, put it in a ChatGTP and they say, "From this create two to three action items that someone could do." So if you don't have the action items, now we can create the action items.

Jeff Sherman: Oh, yeah, for sure. You can already use it that way. You can use it to outline... I try to use it to outline a book. It does a really good job. So even if you just need it to help outline the course, to just put all of your information in order, it can help you with that. It's just about filling in the blanks with your own personal experiences, your own stories. If not, you're going to have a very bland course.

AJ Roberts: Yeah. I [00:51:30] think that's the key, right? It's like you're using as an assistant, not as the final editor.

What about bots? So you guys use anything to interact with your community yet through these AI bots?

Jeff Sherman: We have, but we've been looking into it. There are some other platforms that use it. They're not great yet because... They're cool. The first... It's like auto responders back in the day. The first time you get one you're like, "Oh, thanks for thinking of me." And they didn't realize it went out to a hundred thousand other people. But then after the third one you're like, "Wait a second, I'm on a list."

So it's the same thing right now with that is what I see is the first couple of responses. [00:52:00] They're like, "Oh, thanks. It's cool." After a while you see the responses die off because they're like, "Okay, it's not... And nobody's talking to me."

AJ Roberts: If you had to sum up the ultimate gamification strategy for a creator, what would be included in that? For those that are listening, "I'm going to get into this," what is it the essentials? What is the best thing they can do?

Jeff Sherman: Yeah. It comes down to those three things. Like I said, just create the best community that you can, figure out a way to get them to collaborate because again, my [00:52:30] partner, the way he used to put it was like, "You were born not for but in a competition, but you were born from collaboration." So collaboration is super important. People need feedback, they want to be part of something, they want to be part of a team. So incorporating that in some way.

The gaming elements, a lot of people are doing that. If you get a little bit of a bump with badges and points and stuff like that and likes button, people don't realize that likes is gamification. How many likes did I get? How many views did I get? It's all gamification metrics. It measures up to like did I do a [00:53:00] good job or do people like what I did kind of thing.

But that's not the most powerful part. Most powerful part is people feeling good and then learning a skill that's going to help change their life, like you were saying before. That's the most important thing is getting them to actually become who they joined... Why they paid you the money become that person, finished that journey and doing that however you can.

AJ Roberts: Yeah. It's so much. I feel like we covered so much and people who are listening are probably like, "Sshh." So I wanted to end there because [00:53:30] we were talking about action, action, action. So it's like, "Okay, what are those things?"

Jeff Sherman: Yeah. Facebook groups are super powerful because community is one of the most powerful things. People want to feel part of something. Like I said, collaboration, that's something that you can... Without buying anything else, you can just go in there and put people on teams and have them do a task.

And then the other stuff, the gaming elements, all the likes and the badges and the shares, that's easy to add. It's facilitating and creating a culture of people that support each other on their journey, that's what you really want.

So churches do a really good job of that. So hard to leave a church because [00:54:00] you feel guilty to leave a church, right? Because it's your second home. People are expecting you to show up people and if you don't, people are calling you.

AJ Roberts: Well, there's a reason they say don't hang out with people who aren't in the church. Next thing you know, Monday night you're at Bible study. Wednesday night, you're at a second service. Saturday, you're at men's group. Sunday, you're at church. So there's only a couple days out of the week.

It's funny because they say the reason NFL is on so much is because people can't go Sunday to Sunday. I said, "Must have learned that from the church."

What are some of the biggest mistakes people make when they try to gamify [00:54:30] something?

Jeff Sherman: Well, really what it comes down what we were talking about before, the micro learning and micro action, they ask too much too soon. It's the biggest mistakes a lot of people make in relationships. You're asking for too much too soon without giving, without building up their confidence, building up their discipline. That's usually... We'll see a big drop-off.

We'll see, like I said, level one 96% completion rate, level two 90, and then level three, it's 45. You're like, "Okay, something's in level... You're asking too much in level three or it's confusing and they're not getting it. The creative burden's [00:55:00] too much. They're afraid to be judged on their answer," or something like that.

So you have to go through and just see why are people stopping right here. Is it taking up too much time? Or they don't know what the right answer is. There's not enough examples. The creative burden's too much. What is it?

So if you can see the metrics and see where that's at, then it's easy fix. But we've been doing it so long now we can guide people and while they're creating it that they don't usually run into that too much.

AJ Roberts: What's cool is that... Obviously, I love the online course world, but we started talking about offline businesses and if [00:55:30] someone's... Like you're an offline business owner, you're gym owner, you probably have some gym owners, you can gamify so much of that piece, manually gamify, your first workout, your hundredth workout, and was it you who used to have a t-shirt for a certain number of workouts or something?

Jeff Sherman: Yeah. We had that too.

Yeah, we had gamification stuff in our bootcamp. We had a big mural, it said Wall of Fame, and one was like, "I was at Fit Body Bootcamp." So it's at Fit Body Family [00:56:00] and after your one-year anniversary you get to sign with a magic marker on the wall, you become part of the building, you become part of the place. And then the other side said goal getter. So anytime you reached any goal, you see somebody's name, you'd be like 5k, my first 5k, my first half marathon, my first mud run or lost a hundred pounds or I lost 25 pounds. And the list would just go under and they get to put it up on the wall.

We did have a leaderboard for different who could do the most pushups or who could do the most... We had different exercises or whatever. Fastest mile. So we had a leaderboard as well, but it's all manual. [00:56:30] Dry erase board. Had that all on there. And people loved it. It's great.

AJ Roberts: Yeah. I'm sitting here listening and all the ideas are popping, I'm like, "Oh, we should do this and we should do that. We should..."

Jeff Sherman: You could also do for other things... You have two kids, I have a daughter, I want to create this game called... This is totally different than my platform. I'd have to recreate it, but I thought it'd be cool.

Call it chore wars. You put in all the chores. It could be done daily or it could be done weekly or done monthly, whatever, how [00:57:00] often needs to be done and you could open it up at different times because maybe Tuesday's trash day, so Tuesday at midnight that chore opens up the first person to take it out, you could snap a picture or you could just go in there and take it. They steal the points and then it's closed and nobody else can do the trash cans because that's already out and they got the points.

It's like clean the bathroom or do the dishes or set up the table for dinner. So everybody's going to be racing to do set up the table or whatever. And gamified, you can be like, "So whoever wins gets to pick where we go out to dinner after church on Sunday," or whatever. Or you get 25 bucks bonus or [00:57:30] something.

AJ Roberts: Dude, I love that idea because you could do it as a family, but also if you could get all the kids across their friend groups and stuff because getting kids to do chores is so difficult. They'll do some as long as you help them, but on their own, it seems to be... They feel like they're being punished. So if we could flip the script on that, it would probably be great. So I'm going to push you off there to do that out.

Is there anything else you want to share on the topic that we didn't touch yet?

Jeff Sherman: No. We covered a lot. And if anybody else has any other questions, you can reach out to me on social and I'll be [00:58:00] more than happy to talk to you about it.

AJ Roberts: Yeah. Where on social can they get you?

Jeff Sherman: At jeff.sherman on Instagram. Probably the easiest place. Or jeff@numove.com. Can check out NuMove and it's spelled N-U-M-O-V-E .com and you can check out the platform. But yeah, just reach out to me on Instagram.

AJ Roberts: Cool. Powerful conversation. Thanks for being here.

We'll see you guys on the next episode of the Paid to Create podcast.

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