Paid To Create Podcast
Fireside chats with some of today’s best and brightest Creators
Welcome to Paid To Create, a podcast that features insightful conversations with some of today's most successful entrepreneurs and small business owners.
Join us as we delve into the minds of coaches, consultants, agencies, and experts from various industries to discuss their experiences, strategies, and journeys to success.
Our guests have a wealth of knowledge and expertise in their respective fields and will share their insights on what it takes as a creator to build and grow a successful business.
Each episode is a chance to gain practical advice and inspiration from those who have been through the ups and downs of entrepreneurship.
Our goal is to provide valuable insights and actionable tips to help you take your business to the next level.
Paid To Create Podcast
S2E2 Cult Dynamics for Entrepreneurs: Fear, Reward, and the Business of Belief
What happens when genuine beliefs and good intentions transform into rigid control and manipulation? In this episode, Sarah Jenkins shares her unique experience growing up in a group that would later be recognized as a cult. But unlike the dark, harrowing stories you might expect, Sarah’s journey reveals a more complex reality—one where resilience, critical thinking, and a strong sense of self helped her see through the control.
From strict morning devotionals to enforced dress codes, Sarah uncovers the subtle psychological tactics cult leaders use to maintain authority and obedience. Yet, she also draws a fascinating contrast between fear-based control and the reward-driven systems, like those in Amway, that gave her a different perspective on motivation and loyalty.
As we dive deeper, we explore the powerful parallels between cult dynamics and business practices. How can structured routines shape personal and professional growth? What can entrepreneurs learn from the way cults build loyalty—and what ethical boundaries must never be crossed? Join us for a conversation that blends eye-opening personal stories with critical insights on leadership, motivation, and building strong communities with integrity.
Learn more at paidtocreatepodcast.com
Having that level of discipline to follow the rules you set out is so important, even down to like when people say, hey, the sale ends at midnight Monday, the 31st, and then you go there, you know, tuesday.
Speaker 2:Oh, it's still accidentally.
Speaker 1:And it's the sale still on. You now question everything, right? Welcome everybody to another episode of Paid to Create. I'm your host, aj Roberts, and alongside me, as always, is the beautiful Sarah Jenkins. Awesome. Today we're going to be diving into a topic we're going to be talking about cults and, specifically like for you as a listener, you know there's a lot to learn from building a cult right, and you can look at it as good, look at it as bad, but the truth is is they're able to people who run cults are able to get people to follow them, believe in a movement and, again, cults are normally labeled as bad, but you know you have different cults around the world that I don't know if you'd consider bad, because they're they're movements for good. So, um, keep that in mind as we're going through this. We have a little unique perspective here, because Sarah actually grew up in a cult. So let's just start there. What the heck was that like?
Speaker 2:Well, growing up it wasn't called that at all. It came out later, after, I mean, I graduated going to that college. I graduated the college but stopped going. Then it came out like later on and a couple of the girls that I'm still really good friends with because we went all through all that together, we're like I can't believe it's labeled the cult. Now it's like, well, when we look back, some of it, does you know, fit all of the checklist. So I get how it turned into the cult.
Speaker 2:But when it was started back in the day I don't even know if it was late 70s or 80s my dad said when he was in high school this guy, bill Gotham, would come over with his dad, my grandpa, and they'd do good things for inner city teens. Really, their heart was in the right place. Like, hey, we live by God's principles and that is how you get the life that God wants for you. You're honest, you know, don't murder. Like all the basics was honor your father and mother, you'll be happier. Don't lie, like if you follow God's principles for the happiest life God's trying to give you.
Speaker 2:So starting base was, like you said, very genuine, very awesome. Like you're trying to give your kids this upbringing, trying to make sure that you're instilling in them all these great beliefs so that what's the bible say, when you teach your kids something it doesn't leave their their brain. But then my dad said, actually you're not going to leave it, you're going to decide to go back to that path. I'm like, well, if it's good stuff, then great. Um, but some of it came out later that it wasn't following true to the religious path that my parents were going for. It was going more down that cult street. That made it a little more interesting too, a little more fun. A little more fun to say no to.
Speaker 1:I think if you look at and there's a lot of documentaries, a lot of books and obviously, being a marketer, you go into that because you want to learn how to build a tribe, you want to learn how to create mass influence, and again it's really down to the individual. Um, and again it's really down to the individual what your ethics are and how you use those Um, but what it seems to be pretty standard is that they have a core set of beliefs or principles that they adhere to. Um, that usually is is it's a position, us versus them thing, right, when it's like things aren't going so good because you live in a certain way and we think, if you live this way, life will be better. In this case, backed by God, as the, as the you know source of ultimate authority, ultimate authority, you know, looking back, obviously, like you said, when you were in it you didn't really notice, but looking back, were there any kind of rituals or you know um ceremony type things as you went through?
Speaker 1:You mentioned graduating earlier but, like a lot of times, these things are, uh, are done in a way that is like it's like an Ascension, right. You feel as if you're moving up, you feel as if you're accomplishing things, um and it, and it's kind of a show to everybody else that like, hey, if you follow these paths too, you can. You can ascend in essentially power and authority. That seems to be normal. So was there that kind of stuff that you saw?
Speaker 2:It was a lot more heavily male driven, that power and authority belongs to the man over the woman and then she's in charge of the children, like the hierarchy, and I don't follow that umbrella of authority rules at all, but the standard of it you know. Getting up and doing your devotions, getting up at 6 am and going to the Bible study first, like all those things, were good things. So you didn't really see them sort of the manipulative way that it came around to getting you to do whatever they said to do which is some of it was weird not overly weird, like fun or cults, but I see it. It gave me a good perspective on the different ways that people market.
Speaker 2:Honestly, you look at the way people want to handle. I mean I'll even just go to anyone that's really really great at marketing understands that the way people think and the way people feel to get them to the solution that you're offering, you take them down that path. It's good marketing. So if you're running a cult, you're very good at the human behavior and the marketing part of what you're selling and for this it's the kingdom of God, it's the higher blessings of the Lord. So people obviously want to follow that. But then it gets a little weird, like if your skirt's above this high, you're getting kitchen duty and early bedtime. I'm like man every time you can't have shirts higher than right here.
Speaker 1:I'm obviously violating it right now with three bare fingers.
Speaker 2:You mean lower, I know it's well higher they'll be happy with. Yeah, just cover your face, you're good. Just do turtlenecks all day, that would be best. Yeah, um, but those rules, I think, were just the school. Being overbearing on the little tiny bullshit that they told you was is condescending and sinful. I'm like no, it's not. That's not the way's not the way the Bible is at all. It's actually living by God's grace and that part wasn't part of the equation at all. So now that it's called that cult thing, it makes sense to me. The way that they managed the school that I was attending for a while and the school that I stopped attending when we mutually agreed I shouldn't go anymore also wasn't allowed.
Speaker 1:Yeah Well, we'll get back to your internal compass, because that is an interesting conversation. But just rewinding to, you mentioned doing the things daily. Can you walk us through what that day would look like? Because what's very important here, with people listening, is when you're trying to look at these principles and how maybe they apply to business. One of the things you mentioned was you do your daily devotions, and, and, and he continued on.
Speaker 1:But what's really important is is like when you can get your audience to follow a set of um, you know daily activities. Like every time they do that, they're reminded of the cause. In this instance, it was the ultimate prize. It was the glory of God, kingdom of heaven. Like this, this amazing life you'd be blessed with, right? So that's a big prize, but you have to do these things daily. Um, but you see this like with you know, if you want to work out like there's daily habits you have to do. If you, you know there's daily rituals in terms of prepping your food, eating correctly, so like these things play in everyday life success. It's not just you know what's labeled as a cult that this works.
Speaker 1:But walk us through what a day would look like, because I think it's important to people to see that, because a lot of businesses don't think about the, the like, when they, when they get a customer or client, they don't really think about how do they integrate with their entire life. Right, it's like, oh, here's a product, and then what you do with this, what you do with it. But if you really want to have an impact and have influence, like that, like integration with their daily life, is very key and very important. And you know, and we see it with social media, right, if you watch the documentary on Netflix, social Dilemma, you'll see how aggressive they've been to keep us on the social platforms all day, every day. But anyway, walk us through what a day in the life would look like normally.
Speaker 2:Well, a day in the life of me not falling out of bed and my roommate waking me up, so we're not late for chapel. Wearing the outfit I'll probably get in trouble for anyway, because the skirt's this much higher than it should be or I don't know. Something's wrong with something I'm wearing. Maybe my mascara was too thick, I'm not sure my nail polish color was off. I'm always in trouble, but if I go down to chapel at 6 am, then 7 am.
Speaker 2:You're done traveling. You've started your day appropriately. You've started your day with focusing on the Lord. You're starting your day with thinking of God first. You're thinking when the Bible says, take into captivity every thought, it means you're choosing first thing to think about what God wants for the day. Great, I don't have a problem with that. That's awesome.
Speaker 2:I do have a problem with all the little nuances of getting in trouble every time you wake up. Even if you are actually trying to obey the rules, which I did most of the time actually try to obey all the rules, I still got in trouble constantly. So I lost my drive to follow all the rules and the fact that they'd had it like this is what you do. Those are good things. Dressing appropriately is a good thing, especially for the Bible, versus their teaching that men and women need to dress whatever. I think starting off your day with Bible and your devotions is absolutely great, awesome. But if you don't now, you're failing, now you're criticized. But if you take those principles and put them towards your company, you say, hey, start your day. How are you going to start it? Take some time to think about the creativity of your business. Where are you going to grow it? How are you going to get more clients? Those are the same things. This one's just based on religion and, honestly, the word of the Bible says somewhere in Old Testament and they said Old Testament's not valid. But then we're going to follow all these rules over here, but some of them I'm like what in the world? You're just pulling stuff out of nowhere for us to follow and if we don't, you're failing. So you can make up a rule just because it doesn't make sense to me.
Speaker 2:So if there's six of you down your chapel, then you go to breakfast. Then you go to breakfast, then you go do your studies. Is it always the same food? Oh, it's very similar. It's the kitchen duty was. I was on kitchen duty often so the eggs, breakfast potatoes. Maybe you know grits and eggs, but very healthy base and very cheap and easy to follow and everyone is fine with it. It's the food of the buffet or the school. Just like every school you go to, the buffet is going to be the same five meals. From there you do your studies.
Speaker 2:If you are in the lobby of the hotel that the school was in, if one of the gentlemen even looked at me and said, how was your day? The dean of men is coming over and he's in trouble. I'm not in trouble, I'm just the girl. They're in trouble immediately. So I was never encouraged to go down to the lobby, even though you have to go to the lobby to hit all your classes, chapel and food. I avoided it a lot, though it's easier.
Speaker 2:And then the whole multi-gender thing was the weirdest part. It wasn't just they're trying to keep men and women away from each other until marriage, that whole way that you have to court through the father's permission If it's a girl. There's women that were 30 plus there trying to find a husband that believes the same as them and the guy would have to call the dad and see them on the side for 12 weeks, like there's a whole bunch of weird rules that don't come from Bible. They don't come from anything that's going to actually benefit you, I guess in heaven later. We live by grace. Every Christian is in the Bible, saved by the grace of God. So when you don't go to chapel wearing the right skirt, you're not failing. Your religion isn't failing. The same thing with business. If you don't get up and spend 30 minutes doing the creative to grow your company or find a new list building skill, you're not failing your business. You may not get ahead as much as you can, but business there's a financial reward immediately if you do it right.
Speaker 1:How much do you think those, the rules that they put in place, were, um, they sound kind of traditionalist, right? They like old, old beliefs in terms of roles of men and women, that kind of thing. How many, how much of that do you think was just that versus how much was a control thing? To create guilt and shame, to make you feel like because I think you're more vulnerable, you're more likely to follow when you feel like you're not a good human, right, when you're, when you're made to feel as if you're worthless, you're not a good human.
Speaker 1:You can't ever do anything right. Nothing you do is good enough. And then there's all these punishments. Essentially, um, what you're saying you know, like, as a boy, a natural instinct is to talk to a beautiful woman, and then you're being chastised for it and it's not the right thing. So now you have all these weird emotions because what you, what is natural, is being told is not natural, right? How much? How much do you think was a control thing versus just, these are our beliefs and you and we're trying to train you to follow the beliefs.
Speaker 2:So in the beginning, the starting point, you know, my grandpa kept on being the Baptist pastor in Windsor, canada, and Bill Gothard went down to Chicago and did a lot more good for the inner city youth but then grew it and the people that he put in charge of it in the different areas that he grew the religion part. They made up all these new rules and I think as Bill got a little older some of those rules made sense to him. They made up all these new rules and I think as Bill got a little older some of those rules made sense to him. But most of it, most of it's the control, most of it is you're forgetting that you live by grace. You want to be encouraged to do the right thing.
Speaker 2:If you're choosing an outfit that's not appropriate, shouldn't you know what that is for you? Shouldn't you be able to say I'm making a mistake and you're either doing it on purpose or not? When someone says you've made a mistake, you're like what are you talking about? Like it's very much control aspect, but it's based on punishment and fear. We know that sells more than anything. Right, if you're selling something based on reward. That's the other reason to buy something is based on the reward. So if you're living by grace, you should feel like you want to do those right things that the Bible says and not be punished into making you do them. It's weird, it's a different style.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I like what you said about you know you mentioned if getting up and you know spending those 30 minutes or whatever on the focus that you need to grow your business, and if you don't, it didn't necessarily fail your business you just might not get ahead, it might be longer, it might be that I think a lot of people you know what they need to understand as we're going through this is kind of like we mentioned rituals, right, the daily rituals, the daily habits, like again, these can be positive, they don't have to be a negative. And then like rules, right, like, if you're teaching something, there's normally going to be rules and a lot of times you have to understand who your audience is. I'm working on a new book called Breakthrough Marketing that goes into kind of conscious levels and who you're marketing to. But the majority of people are rule followers, not rule breakers. Right, like, as you go up, rule breaking becomes, you know, entrepreneurial and things like that Cause you're going against the status quo, going against the mass movements. But when you look at, uh, uh, if you're trying, if you're serving, you know the masses like a lot of times they believe in rules because that's what they've been conditioned their whole life to believe in, and so I think that having rules in place a very important part of building a culture for you, whether it's for your T, internally for your team, or whether it's externally for your clients and customers. Um, and I think how you respond and react to the way they do those is very important. And you'll see leaders who do punish or chastise, right, like and I've been at conferences where they made people, like you know, do pushups and like all this stuff in front of everybody because they screwed up or they did something like that, and so you do get compliance, but you get compliance out of fear, right, you get compliance out of embarrassment, and so, while it works in that setting, long-term probably going to end up getting some negative feedback, probably not going to be everybody's thing. So there's ways to do it. I think it's important, as we go through With the different aspects of you have the rules and the rituals when it comes to the leadership, right, obviously, that's.
Speaker 1:It's interesting because in this case, god was the ultimate prize. But was there a hierarchy where, like you know, the, the, the people who found it like, was there? How did they keep compliance? Like with the, like with the order, like how was that done? In order to constantly position themselves, because I'm guessing at this, but I'm going to assume their role suggested they were closer to God and this is why, like they're further along in the journey, they're closer to God. Therefore, they're the model, they're the people we should aspire to be like and satisfy and make happy. So how was the leadership structure and how was the I guess power balance maintained?
Speaker 2:It was mostly geared towards the young teens, right, and the kids growing up, to make sure they set the right way growing up. And a lot of it was great. But when it went too far because I know that when you're having problems with your kid to send them off to one of these training camps, that puts them in a room with a Bible and a pillow, that's all you get. And you have to see your counselor or pastor who I think took the pastor thing way too far, like to make this kid sit in a room with a pillow and a Bible to get them straight. It's like, oh man, that's causing so much more damage. That's not how we live by grace at all. So that's where they've taken it. Like they're going to look to these pastors or these people that are put in charge. Here's the leader for this team, here's the leader in this team. So then you send your kid to those leaders and it's like man, it was just so much stricter than you thought it was.
Speaker 1:So, essentially, if there was noncompliance, there was a punishment, and the punishment was isolation. They didn't phrase it like this, but this is how it seems, as if you felt I got a lot of kitchen duty and a lot of early curfews yeah, a lot of time.
Speaker 2:Well, so you have to sign out and ask the dean of women if you can leave the campus. But I'm from there, it's Michigan, so I'm like I'm out, like my family's house is 45 minutes on the street. I might need to go home. My sister can pick me left all the time. But if nobody else can leave, the permission from the dean of women, I'm like we're adults and you're raising your kids, like a lot of them came with, have never stepped outside of their little little, very small farm with their parents who's raised in this very, very strict way. Even the men and I, even stricter than we, were raised. They would send comfortable kids there. Because you can't leave the building without talking to dean of women, and they weren't allowed. Their parents said no, even if you're 20. The dean said no. Your parents said no, you can't leave the building without talking to Dean of Women, and they weren't allowed. Their parents said no, even if you're 20, the dean said no, your parents said no, you can't leave. Like.
Speaker 2:The reason I actually got kicked out was I was talking to a boy on the phone who I thought was very cute. Never met him. But they said you can't do that because your dad didn't say yes. I said what are you talking about? I'm 18. I had a boyfriend when I showed up and you didn't have a problem with it. So yeah, but your dad said you could have that boyfriend. I was like but he doesn't get a, say now I'm an adult. And they're like, yeah, he does, you're dishonoring your father, mother 10, commandment five. I was like I disagree with that. I would never dishonor my father, even in the comments, like when I talk about anything my parents have done. If it was negative to me in the moment, I still value the lessons it taught me. I still value the way that they were trying to raise me in the right way and love me the best they can. So it's not a negative, but it is to everybody else.
Speaker 1:So it sounds like because of your family's relationship and because of proximity, you actually had a different, quite slightly different experience than the other girls and so, like normally people fall in line because they just get tired of being punished.
Speaker 1:But you kind of had this old alternate view because you were, you were leaving and doing things that weren't necessarily normal. So that's kind of like most people, like they they end up in in staying in cults and being a part of cults because there's a sense of belonging, there's a sense of these are my people, like we're all misfits, we're all all broken, we all have the same thing and and this person that, usually the person in charge, has the solution for our salvation, right, and and I'm using those words because it was a religious cult. But you know, you look at any cult and it's like that. It's essentially some form of salvation from pain, from whatever it is, you know, and and you get swayed, persuaded and into belief systems. Was there ever a sense of belonging for you or did you always feel like you were out of place? Did you always have this like internal thing that was like this isn't right.
Speaker 2:Well, I've always been out of place, just in general. I mean a family of nine kids. I'm the one that didn't really respond well to certain rules that were in place in the house that everybody agreed with, and I didn't follow them. I was in trouble often, which I should have been in trouble often If I was disrespecting the rules in the house. That's what should happen. But I was comfortable and used to that part of it.
Speaker 2:So actually, when I went to the school and people were in this Bill Gothard way of thinking the dad's authority, the mom's in charge of the kids, and you're the kid and you have to obey your parents or you're going to go to hell for sure. They were raised stricter than I was and it was started in my dad's home. So I thought it was pretty funny. They made me room with a second generation IVLP-er and I was like, oh yeah, because I don't have any rules. That's so weird.
Speaker 2:I watched some TV and I wore pants. So obviously I have no idea about these rules. And it was just funny when someone realized when Bill came to our school he's like Hi, sarah. They're like oh, no, like Mr Gothard's coming, and I was like Bill's coming. Cool, I know him, he knows my grandparents, he knows my family. He's super great in all his ways of starting the cult based on the drill down little stupid rules about the color of your shoelaces. It didn't matter, it's just the control thing. I thought it was funny. They put me with experienced IBL peers because I'd watched TV, I'd worn pants, so I didn't fit in and didn't know all the rules.
Speaker 1:I knew most of the rules, just thought they were all stupid well, I think when you, when you, when you have a different relationship with a leader and you see them in a different light, there's a different level of thought process and, rightly or wrongly, it's a sense, a little bit of a sense of superiority over the other students, right and rightfully so, like if everybody is enamored by someone. Oh, you know, like such and such is coming on and it's like, just, it's someone you know and you've been around. You're like, what's the big deal? So there's not the same effect. Right is what I'm getting at, and it sounds as if, like that gave you this underlying thought process when some of these things were happening. We're like, wait a minute, like, why are we doing this? Because, like, for you, there was a different level of understanding. There was a different level of understanding, there was a different level of experience.
Speaker 1:One of the things, though, obviously, cults do really really well is rewarding people that do follow them. Right, it's kind of like. It's kind of like. It's kind of like, if you want attention, you do good stuff, not bad stuff. Right, because if we give bad, if we give the negative the attention, then then more people will be negative. But if we essentially and this is something businesses can do and do well with, like a reward system or prizes. You know it's like people hit certain certain benchmark and, whatever it is, you're working with them on and and they're rewarded for it, whether it's uh, you know publicly or whatever. Um, it's like showcasing the success as an example to the other people of of hey, if you follow, if you follow my teachings, you know like you can have this success too. Right? So was that? What was the system? It?
Speaker 2:was the opposite. So now you can say, okay, someone that went to chapel every day, got the best on their homework, got the best devotions, did the 300 page or 300 word verse synopsis you do every week was awesome. So they get no kitchen duty, they get to. You know, go to the park with their best friend, like every week, whatever. If there's reward systems for doing the best, that's awesome. But then it was always the punishment for not doing good enough. It was the opposite. So you're doing bad, you're out, you're kicked out.
Speaker 2:I even got kicked out usually and I show back up and there's a slit in my skirt that I own from working in this high-end boutique that I love. It's this brown leather skirt. It's fantastic and beautiful because my parents had me go back to the school to do the basic seminar, which is the basics you know, do your scripture, love God, grace, all the good things. I'm like we just want to give you back that perspective. I was like awesome.
Speaker 2:And the pastor that I didn't like called me and he's like you know, we need to have a talk. I was like first of all, you can't bring me in your office without the Dean of Women. But secondly, what? And he's like well, you follow uniform when you're in the school because you know, even if you're schooling from home, you have to follow the uniform. And I was like not doing that. He's like what do you mean? I was like, exactly, thank you, I'll see you later. I was like why are you so pertinent on demanding that I wear the right skirt when I'm already kicked out and coming back to learn the basic seminar? I'd be like welcome back. I hope this encourages you to follow the rules again and come back to school. No, it was. Can we get you in trouble again? I'm like no, you can't, I'm out.
Speaker 1:It sounds rebelled.
Speaker 2:I followed all the rules of the school and then they thought I wasn't all the time and I was like I had to wear pants under my skirt when I'm playing volleyball in the ballroom because I have scars on my knees from falling and diving for the ball. But my dean of women's, like you're trying to disobey the rules, you have jeans under your skirt. I was like they're the only pants I own. I don't have any money. I've never bought anything not jeans.
Speaker 2:Hand me down for my sister, like everyone else, had leggings because their parents would buy them for them. I didn't ask my parents for that. I thought that was a ridiculous waste of money. I've got jeans. You have to wear pants under your skirt, no problem. But then I get early bedtime again. I'm like why I'm following the rules. Jeans are even more modest than the leggings most of the time was weird. It was very tricky to try to fit in. Try to do the right thing, be motivated to try to do the right thing. Be motivated to try to just do my best and graduate and then just keep failing. I'm over it. Pick me out.
Speaker 1:So this happens a lot, where you get like a group of people who don't want to follow the rules right and they kind of grow and they end up getting removed or removing themselves because they don't agree and they don't want to follow the rules. So, like, did you create this little rebellious group, or were you the odd one out?
Speaker 2:Like how did the dynamic I actually played poker and didn't invite me Not that I'm going to tell on them because I didn't disobey the rules. Alcohol in their bedrooms. I didn't know about the pastor. He goes. You know there's alcohol in the school and I was like what he goes. I think you're lying if you don't tell me where it is. I'm like I don't know what you're talking about. I've never drank. I don't want alcohol. That sounds terrible. Why would they bring it in here? There's a bar down the street. Holy crap. It's just the weirdest thing that they had rules against.
Speaker 2:They got mad at me for it. I didn't do anything. I didn't do it well, had a great time. And then my older brother and I went to a pool table bar to just hang out and play some pool and then he dropped me back off at school and I had such a good time. I got back I said I'm doing really well, I had a great weekend, my parents were lovely. I've got a little paycheck from that job so I can get lunch and stuff with the girls.
Speaker 2:And this one girl went and told on me to the dean of men's wife or something and they said Sarah's bragging about going to bars with men and I was like they called me to the office. I was like what are you talking about? I went and played pool with my brother, which is no one's business. I'm talking about it at lunch, like well, you should keep your private life quiet when you're here. I'm like not a chance, there's no chance of somebody that you think is doing better out in the real world when they take a vacation with their family and you think I've done something wrong, which I didn't do, that I'm going to shut up about it. Absolutely not. That's a double standard that I definitely fall into a couple times, sometimes on purpose, sometimes on accident, but mostly on accident. So I didn't care to disobey the rules. I'm like I'm at school to do the job and get home.
Speaker 1:Now, you're from a big family, right? How many brothers and sisters you have? Nine.
Speaker 2:I have six brothers, two sisters, nine total.
Speaker 1:I'm third of nine. So with that was your whole. Were all your siblings in the same school or was it just you? How? How did this cause? Cause like here's?
Speaker 1:Here's where my thought process is with this question is you clearly had a different perspective and the fear and the control and everything they were trying to put on you constantly failed.
Speaker 1:Right, and we go into why and you know if. But if you're hopefully like, if you have all those brothers and sisters and they're all in the school and they're all following the rules and they're all doing the example, it's kind of odd that you were rebelling, but it but it seems as if, potentially, you had a lot of examples of a different life in your own family which made you question what the heck was going on at this school Because, again, you weren't fully indoctrinated, it wasn't like. It seems like you had a whole different perspective, consistently to give you these other ideas of what is right and what's wrong, because usually, as a kid, when you're told what's right or wrong, you eventually bend. You know, if you go and sit in a room on your own with the bible long enough and on a pillow, eventually you're going to just break and you're just going to follow the rules, but I've been a couple times.
Speaker 2:everyone to their beds, for someone didn't cop to putting the milk in the fridge and dad's like someone's got to confess and they get a spanking for leaving the milk out and we're all sitting on our beds. I'm like you know what, fine.
Speaker 1:It was me?
Speaker 2:It probably wasn't, but I'm like we're going to get spanked anyway. Might as well be me this time. Some of us took one for the team so we can all get off our beds. Michael took one for the team a couple times, josh did. We all have an example where we decided to just take the raised in was Amway, and so Amway is like if you get people that buy these products that are, you know, more organic and more healthy, that will improve their life and they get paid back for the vitamins and stuff like that. It's a reward system. Now you can raise higher in the ranks of Amway, get a little more recognition, get a little more clients, get a little more income.
Speaker 2:That was a totally opposite system than the school I went to, not my home life. My home life was my mom raised us very independently Watch the kids, we'll be home later. We're like great, clean the house, do lunch, fine, homeschool, awesome. But seeing the differences between the punishments don't matter. If you go OK, if you don't do any, you don't make any sales. You'll never be a diamond. You'll never make more money. We're going to kick you out. You be like OK, who cares? But if you do become a diamond. You do grow your business. You're helping other families grow their income. This is a benefit, a positive, a positive influence, a positive financial reward, some recognition, some you know good behavior, high fives and stuff Like it's a positive thing.
Speaker 2:I was raised in both of those places, which is extremely telling, because the punishments at the place I was at didn't matter. Like one kid came from a ranch in Texas, I mean, I've got a million stories. But they said you can't smoke. We have our no smoking school and it's bad for your health or whatever. He's like well, I've been smoking since I was like 16. He's 18. They're like well, then you have to go to the roof where no one can see you.
Speaker 2:I was like see, this is what I mean, but you don't. If it fails and someone has a reason for it failing, that's not hell. You give in, but you only give into that kid and it's a secret. What the heck? That's not okay. So I found that their rules of strictness and you get early curfew. Or they did have a family day where parents are going to check out the school, which I went to with my parents. It was really fun. They said you should, you should stay in your room. I was like you don't want to meet the new parents thinking about sending their kids here. They're like no. I was like, well, fine, stay in my room but you had, so that that's interesting.
Speaker 1:Um, you bring up amway and you, you know, you immediately mentioned some levels, like immediately, like there's, uh, cult principles in amway for success, but the difference, and stark difference, was one was a reward system, one seems like it was a punishment system. And you know, having that contrast, you just saw, well, wait a minute, like as a kid, you kind of go, well, I like this system better than that system. And then when you saw the cracks in the rules, you're like, well, wait a minute, they're pick and choose, like depending on who you are, which I could see again creating those cracks, who you are, which I could see again creating those cracks. Um, you know one of the things that that cults do really really well and great companies, who, who build amazing tribes, do this as well as like, kind of come up with your own language.
Speaker 1:You know, um, kind of your own terms for things and you know, uh, it's what bonds. You know, fans of Holly Davison, fans of, uh, you know, justin Bieber, the Biebs right, the Swifties that you know, justin peep of the beebs right, the swifties that you know, like, uh, lady gaga has the little monsters right, and other companies have this kind of stuff where when you're inside it's like a secret club and that again creates some separation. Obviously amway has some language like that inclusivity inclusivity.
Speaker 1:What kind of symbols rich, you know symbols, or you know language or things that did you experience. That kind of was unique within the walls of the school.
Speaker 2:Oh man, I found that the dress specifically because we weren't raised to wear skirts, you know, down to our big toe. But a lot of those girls were, a lot of those guys were. So when we went to the school we couldn't leave without the dean of men saying we could leave. But then I don't. I mean if I left with family or friends, I had the okay. I'd walk down the streets of Flint Michigan, which is never safe, and people would ask me, are you from that cult? And I was like no, clearly wearing all of the uniform that the cult says. But but to me I wasn't shocked when I went to the mall and saw women in pants.
Speaker 2:But the people from the school were Like they'd go to the mall and be like oh, my word, it's just oh, it's almost lending them a temptation. You didn't let them experience or see normal behavior that they're going to go out into the world. And now have're in Flint Michigan, of all places, to not be experiencing the world. You leave the building, you're going to see some stuff. You see drug dealing in the front of the school, super interesting. But it just didn't help. It didn't help them. Now they have to be, they have to find their wife and they have to lead their family or whatever they're going to do, and you've chained them down to this one way of thinking and it's like not asking you to expand your views to a billion other things, but there's a normal range of you know, women in pants aren't sending you to hell like that's too far.
Speaker 1:It was interesting because I think that that's like so one of the things and again it's can be used good but like, one of the things most businesses or cults will do is to create separation. Right, it's like we're normal, they're not normal, or we have the way, they don't have the way. The way, and you know, even in a, even in regular churches, like when you, you know, especially for new people, when they join the messages immediately, like don't hang out with those sinners anymore. Like your entire life should be centered around the church, because you know you want this certain outcome and it's temptation and I agree with, like, if you're a drug addict and you get go to rehab, the last thing you do is go start hanging out with the same friends as you did before.
Speaker 1:You have to change your environment, you have to change your circle of influence, you have to do these things and it sounds like you know, for some of these kids and again I think you had a different worldview, so you, your experience was different because you immediately, like had a reference point to go against. Right, it's like, well, wait a minute, this goes on over here. It's not like, why is this here For those kids that were raised differently, with that, where that's what's acceptable, and they've never seen anything else. When they see the short skirt, it's an immediately a shock factor and, oh my gosh, that person is a heathen, that person. So there's an immediate like-.
Speaker 2:It's putting a motivation on that person for wearing a pair of pants that's supposed to choose to make you stumble. That's not even fair to give your emotions on what you perceive they've done to harm you. It's very weird. It's creating a very funky, you're a bad guy type of situation, which is not true. I had a girlfriend in high school. She said her and her mom were fighting and she like yelled at her and then she felt bad. So she came down and apologized and I was like, oh my word, I would never yell at my parents. They would murder me for sure. But I just never thought. I was like she must be a really bad Christian to yell at her mom, Like that's so disrespectful, not honoring your father and mother. And I was like, uh-oh, I see her parents.
Speaker 1:I saw her with her mom and it was. I was like how crappy of me. But it's a great way to control people right when we go out in public and they think everybody is like temptation and dangerous.
Speaker 2:Nothing wrong with wanting your wife to wear a skirt because it's less revealing and you like your wife to be yours and your family. There's nothing wrong with that. But when you look at someone else wearing a pair of pants, is they're going to hell because they're trying to make other men fall because of their ass? It doesn't exist. That's not true. It's creating a very negative view in your own head of everyone else. Where is her grace?
Speaker 1:Where is your nonjudgmental side that you have to live in the world with? I think unfortunately that's spilled over into mainstream now. You know how many kids do you see playing outside? Hardly any. Why? Because some creeper's going to come pick them up. In fact, there's less of that crime now than before because these creepers are online. They're not driving around in candy vans anymore trying to pick kids up. They're grooming online Online's. Where you've got to worry about when are all the kids? They're indoors online. They're not outside right. So these things spill over.
Speaker 1:But again, it's a mind control thing and going trying to say extract some business lessons here without it sounding like you know, negative, like you do want. You do want certain thought processes right, like if you, if you're a successful person, and someone is coming to you and saying how do I be successful too? And you say you got to get up at 5am. That's not true, but it's true for you. So you know, when you pass certain things on, oftentimes it's passed on around like what it took you to be successful, you know. So you've got different camps, you've got the hard work, work, you know, 18, 20 hours a day, sleep as little as possible, which is more about success with at least amount of effort and allowing it to flow, and having balance in all areas, and neither side's right or wrong. It's just what's right for the individual. But as a business owner, if you're in a field or in an industry where it lends itself to giving people these rules or these things to follow, you know you want a reward system if they do it, because they're more likely to be successful. You want rules for them to follow because without rules they're just going to make it up and there's a higher chance of failure if there's no blueprint. Right, you know what is that goal without a plan is a dream, you know. Sometimes that's true, I know people who would disagree with that. Right, but you, you have these things in place because and I can look back to a lift in right with the lift in background Like I follow a certain system called the conjugate training system.
Speaker 1:Is it the best system in the world? I don't know. Is it the best system in the world? For me, 100%. Do I often have a bias when I'm talking to people and think it's the best system in the world? Absolutely, but it's based on my personal experience. Someone is going to be better off following that program than following no program. But I will fall into that trap of it.
Speaker 1:But without the process. The process was created for the majority of people. Without the process, what do the majority of people without the process? What are the majority of people do? They run around like headless chicken, not knowing what to do. So you kind of have to create rules and you kind of have to have these things in place. And if you want it to be successful, you do need to reward people, you do need to make them feel special and those kinds of things.
Speaker 1:Um, looking at the situation, usually, obviously Ascension is a piece of it, but usually in a cold or something, there's like there's a big promise, right, and obviously if you're waiting, if you're in there and you're young, you know 16 and the promise is when you die you're going to go to heaven. That's a long time to keep. Someone you mentioned earlier there was like 30 year olds trying to meet a husband and they're having all these issues. So what kept people a part of this system? Was it literally mind control, where they just believed that they couldn't leave, that they a husband and they're having all these issues? So what kept people a part of this system? Was it literally mind control, where they just believe that they couldn't leave, that they were trapped there? Or? It's interesting, right, that level of control? 30 years old and, like you, you won't talk to a man because you have a certain belief system.
Speaker 2:But if you decided that the woman that does go talk to a man without the father of all or without the organization, okay, and it means you're failing and you're doing wrong, like that's the, you keep yourself inside that. It's a fear-based thing. That's why I like that we had the and we have been bringing of rewards and levels and financial benefits and that's why we never, ever marketed based on fear. You can make more money when you sell based on fear. But we never did so. We did webinar jam. We did all the marketing stuff back in the day. We only sold based on reward benefit and this is going to help your business, make it easier, make it cheaper. You're helping someone. That's the only way I can get myself to sell. Anything is if I know I'm giving you a good price, I know it will help your business. That's the only way I can do it. I can't do it from the fear-based place A. I don't believe in that but also didn't help me. So I'm looking at the NY thing. For my parents was this huge, really fun place to be a part of and then they got to make some money and have cool products that were quality and they could be proud of it. But in that school I was at, it was everything was a failure. And you're the failure and you're doing wrong. You need more punishments and earlier or curfews, and I'm like that's not working for me. So I don't like. And even at home, when my mom raised us very independently, my dad's at work, my mom's going to go to the bank or store or whatever she needed to go do. She's like hey, you know, get up by 10, have your rooms clean. So there's rules. We're not sleeping until noon. Probably wise. 10 am was the cutoff, not 7 am. Built us with rewards. If the kitchen's clean, you get to go to bed or watch Monday Night Football or whatever. But if she comes home at two in the morning and the kitchen's messy, you're getting out of bed to clean it because you didn't follow the rule. There is a punishment. But we didn't clean the kitchen to not get the punishment. Clean the kitchen so we could watch Monday Night Football or do something fun. We finished our homeschool so we could run out and play in the neighborhood because we had all these. If you do this, then you get this. It's positive, it's a reward for your hard work. You get paid, you get to start a business. We're always raised, but that's why I didn't fit in, probably, to the cult thing with all of the, the super, super rules.
Speaker 2:You're going to hell because your heart is wrong. When you disobey a rule, you're sinning. Some things are sins, great, but not the. Your skirt being this much too high, isn't? You? Didn't choose it on purpose, you're not. I'm going to get away with this. No, that's a hard issue, but we didn't have that. We had mistakes. And now you're like you early, curve you in bedtime. I'm like why? Why wouldn't you just say, hey, don't wear that again next time. Do better, okay, great time, nope.
Speaker 1:So how old were you when you went into this 17? Okay, so this was, this was almost a later education for you. So did, were they? What did they start younger with most people is that well.
Speaker 2:So most people that I was in school with had. They had a section for girls that taught them about no running in the hall, wear your high heels, put your skirt that low, whatever. They had a bunch of rules teach you how to be a lady very strict, strict, not my thing. Then they had a thing for boys alert for boys, like almost like a military training, sort of like discipline, you know whatever. So teach the men to be men, like a lot of it was started with the best, the best things and then they made it so rulesy and condescending and horrible If you didn't follow the littlest thing. It was like man. I don't know how it worked, but they started kids young and I didn't start that. We started with the basic seminar that came from. You know, my dad going to these basic seminars and having it being raised that way in his house, which was a positive that we got that too.
Speaker 2:We, we didn't mind going to basic seminars. We wrote out how you know 10 commandments. We had this guy, charlie Weiss, on give us. He goes if you learn the ten commandments, you memorize them. I'll give you 10 bucks. Right now. We're like studying, studying, and we all got 10 bucks and I still know them now, like by heart, because we decided to memorize them based on what we wanted the 10 bucks. Now we know the 10 commandments by heart. That's amazing. What a great thing to do for your kid, instead of saying, if you don't learn the 10 commandments, you're going to bed early and you don't get to go out on saturday. Oh man, I'm not. I'm gonna learn them, but it's going to take longer. I'm going to hate it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so for you your worldview was different going in.
Speaker 1:And so it was clashing, like you actually were clashing, you didn't have an issue. And so all of a sudden you're in an environment that's basically telling like when I say you didn't have an issue, I just mean you weren't at a point in your life where you were lost. You were 17. You were still young. You weren't some drug addict on the street searching for salvation. You already had salvation. By the sounds of it, god was already a part of your life. All of a sudden you're in an environment that's saying everything you've grown up on is wrong. So I could see how that worldview and then for you there was probably lack of trust towards the system because it's contradicting what you were raised on.
Speaker 2:And you're saying my rules they don't even uphold for all the students. So I'm like you don't get to decide. You're not God. So when you tell me my heart's in the wrong place because my skirt was one inch shorter than it should be, you're wrong. I did that on accident. Jeans under my skirt was offensive to you. Where is that in the rule book? It's not there.
Speaker 1:I didn't choose that naturally going against the curve. Because of of your, your worldviews and your upbringing, it was, uh, it was going to be, it would. It would have been a big task for you to overcome all of that and fall in line, right. Basically, oh, did other people struggle there too, or or was it? Were you like, was it one of those things where you were like what is wrong with these people? Like, whether was it was it, was everybody else super indoctrinated, super into it and and you just seemed like the rebel, or was it?
Speaker 2:There was a couple of me's in there like a little more, we're going to go ahead and go around the world rules. We're going to have poker parties, we're going to go out with the boys and not tell deans of women and stuff like that. And I didn't have a lot of respect for that because I'm like look, you signed up to be here. Our dean of the school was a Navy SEAL and he said look, shape up or ship out. These are the rules. If you don't like it, there's the door. He's like I have no problem with you leaving if you can't make it, but you're agreeing to these rules. You got to obey them.
Speaker 2:So that's why I didn't bring in all the contraband that all the some of the other kids chose to do Like I had. I was walking through the lobby with a CD and one of the other pastors was like I need that CD, I'm confiscating it. I was like it got approved and then the, the Dean of music got in trouble because it had a slight beat to it and you're not allowed to have anything with a beat super Christian CD.
Speaker 2:But I'm like but they thought it was like an NSYNC CD, which it wasn't Cause I brought those things to the school being like, eh, no one's going to care. And then when I heard they cared so much, they're going to toss your room, I'm like then I just put them at home. I'm like it's not worth it. I'm not going to bring these here. I'm not. I'm not going to get in trouble at school for disobeying the rules because they don't matter. It's fine. I can get to chapel on time. I can, especially my roommate wakes me up. I can get dinner done. I can do my kitchen duty. It's not a problem, I don't mind the rules.
Speaker 1:I mind the whole stigma around. Usually when someone leaves a cult there's a lot of excommunication. And I've seen this done well in business, where it's like you know when you're in the group, everything, and as soon as you leave, it's like you're cut off, cut off from the group. Other members cut you off, and I've seen that in business and rightly or wrong. I've also seen the other thing where when you leave, the leader keeps in contact with you and continues the relationship and usually they end up coming back. What was your experience like when you? So you mutually agreed that the school was no longer the right fit. But obviously you have friends there, you have like relationships. Your parents, your grand, your grandfather's involved the founding person of this community. So what? What was that transition like? How were you treated? And and uh, you know, what?
Speaker 2:what was the experience? It was weird. They said if I don't apologize to the whole school for dishonoring my father, mother, for talking to a boy on the phone, which I agree wasn't the right thing, but it doesn't mean kicking me out of school, whatever. It was okay for me to be dating when I joined the school, but not now. It's. It doesn't match right. So they said, take a few days, go home and think about it. My parents were trying to help me make the right decision, but I was like I don't think I'm done with the school.
Speaker 2:I went back to go get my stuff and most of it was stolen. So I was like in this school really oh, come on, you guys, missing half my teacups, like my grandma gave me. A bunch of my clothes were gone. I was like man, I stole my stuff. And then I went back, one of the pastors who I had a good relationship with, the Navy SEAL and his wife she actually passed away and I ended up going with one of the girls from the school to the funeral and a bunch of the students came up to me like they've graduated and they're like you're still here, people at the school a lot, and you know, so I'm here. You know like, well, you shouldn't be here, because we all told the dean of uh the school that all those cosmo magazines and teen people that we found were yours. I was like why I feel like because you weren't there. I'm like, oh, you know, you do what you got to do to survive.
Speaker 1:You became the scapegoat.
Speaker 2:I became the one that all the contraband was. I never brought any contraband to the school, but now all of it's mine. I'm like, okay, well, you know, it is what it is.
Speaker 1:That said, obviously you know there's a lot of experience. It doesn't sound like you had a bad experience in terms of like. Obviously it probably wasn't fun, but obviously it probably wasn't fun, but it doesn't seem like anything too bad happened with you. There wasn't the punishments, although isolating. They weren't that, you know, abusive in that sense. Um, when you look at it and obviously you've built businesses and been part of building businesses and we've built businesses together what elements from that experience, or even from the Amway upbringing because Amway has a lot of a lot of things that I think you know a lot of people are cringing, probably listening If I say they have good things. They do. A lot of these companies don't stick around unless they have good things, like they might have bad things, but you have to do something right in order to stand the test of time.
Speaker 2:Practices are solid.
Speaker 1:What would you, what would you say, were the positives of growing up in a cult and being a part of this kind of experience?
Speaker 2:Well, the first thing was being in Amway, my dad. I don't know how, but he managed to be the backstage sound guy and he either figured it out or he already knew, but he was really talented at making sure the sound was perfect for all the people in the States who don't know about sound don't really care. So now he's back with all these multimillionaires that are the most successful in Amway, karen. So now he's back, all these multimillionaires that are the most successful in Amway, and we can go backstage and see our dad whenever we want. And then we got to work in the tool room selling the books and tapes which I read and listened to, for all those motivational ones, all those business building books that we all talk about. I read them all when I was 12, 13, 14. And we had the business tapes in the car talking about the reward and the working hard and like doing it right. That's how I was raised with those other things. So there's a lot of rules, there's a lot of reward, there's a lot of punishment, but I liked. I liked the happiness.
Speaker 2:Everyone was excited to see my dad. Oh, dave's here Sound guy Awesome. Oh, it's your Dave's kids, awesome. Come on back, be with the multimillionaires. I'm like they're just like cool. And with multi, multi millionaires, we had a Denny's at two in the morning. This is awesome, how special for me and I get to learn all this stuff and I get to see how powerful and rewarding they can be in their own lives. They get to travel when they want, they get best cars, best clothes. I'm like this is awesome, like they're doing well and they're happy to sit with us at Denny's and talk about it and what they did, right, like it was very positive.
Speaker 1:I think people get that Like. Like, when you go to an event and stuff, right, you got different levels of tickets and and although, like, your dad was volunteering, which I think is very normal in a lot of situations, and so you know, if you're listening, and like you're a business owner, but maybe you're a solopreneur or you're someone that like like, going to events is a really good place to find people who have what you want or have achieved what you want or what you think you want, and get around it. And oftentimes it just costs money, right, like, if a regular ticket's $500, maybe you have to buy a $10,000 ticket, but with that $10,000 ticket you get a day before with the host, you get dinners, you get VIP events, you get things like that and that gives you that interaction. So that's something that you mentioned.
Speaker 1:I think, oh, there's a lesson in that. Just that, what else? What else do you think from all the experiences? Like was positive because it doesn't. You don't seem to have too much of a. Obviously you disagreed, but it wasn't. It's not like this huge, painful, negative experience for you by the sounds of it no, I decided, what if you're punished me?
Speaker 2:I mean I'll take it if I earned it, but it's not, it doesn't change me at all. The rewards didn't change me either, but they are motivating me to do this thing or that thing. Like I had um worked in a little specialized boutique where I would go at 15 and serve cake and coffee to an 80 year old woman who was looking for a new you know, grandmother, grandmother of the bride dress. I'm like, sit here, have some cake, I'll bring you several in your size, what colors do you like? And at 15, I'm specializing selling to these older people that really liked working with me and it taught me that I enjoy that. So if I enjoy helping that lady find a dress for her granddaughter's wedding, it was really fun. So the reward system was motivating that I know I could do it.
Speaker 2:I actually got hired after being an intern because I sold so well and the woman that was the boss was teaching me about the sales, the hiring, the sales tax, the property tax, all of the liabilities insurances, all of it. She decided to teach me about business because my mom got me the job there when she asked me what I wanted to do, I wanted to own a business. Mom's like, ok, go learn. No, we've been learning our whole life and I think that the fact that people get driven down by the negative of you get kicked out or you're a failure like I don't understand any of that, why Don't let it get to you?
Speaker 1:Well, a lot of people, especially in a religious setting, they're more likely to run away from hell than they are to run towards heaven. Right, if you tell someone's like bad, like, like uh, trying to think, like when my kid, when she's climbing, like if I'm scared, like and I have fear that she's going to fall and hurt herself, cause I understand, like the height she's at and the danger that's there, I don't try to give pain a positive picture for her. You know, I try to paint a negative picture, thinking that it might get her to come down. Oftentimes it doesn't work. She just knows it's my fear and she's like whatever, um, you know, but if I'm like, oh, you know, come on down, we get ice cream. If you come down, like, like, she's not going to change her perception, right?
Speaker 1:So oftentimes I think negative is used, um for, for reasons like that. But I do think that you know, at the same time there is a way to do it from a place of love and that, and especially, you know, from my understanding and my beliefs, like God is is a loving God. He's not a God who's punished me. He's not a God, it's like. I don't buy into that, but a lot of people do and I think that that's kind of the thing you have to play into and I think really, like there's different styles and and you know, as a leader you have to kind of pick and choose what they are. But if you want to be in business for a long time, like it is probably better to figure out how to operate from a place of love and abundance than it is from fear and hate, right, um and negative. Because I think long-term motivation, short-term motivation, oftentimes is motivated by fear. But it's kind of like that whole saying you know, sell them what they, what they what they want, give them what they want, give them what they need. So maybe you have to use some of that in the front end to get them in, because that's what's going to get them to action. But, like, long term, you have to be at a pivot mindset and get them to stay for reasons beyond the fear.
Speaker 1:Because if someone's operating from fear, shame or guilt, like they're always in a state of scarcity, and when they're in a state of scarcity you can never operate at your best self, and cults obviously want people in that state because they want to be able to control them. And I think that the problem when you're a business and you do that is eventually it breaks. Eventually it breaks, people leave, you're exposed, and you just have to look at all the documentaries and all the things out there. The outcome at the end is never good, right, and I mean some of these guys even will get exposed and then they go to a new place and start it all over again.
Speaker 1:So it's not like humans don't fall for this stuff. It's not like this stuff's not going to work. It's just a case of what do you want to build your business on? And if you want a business that's going to go beyond you, you want to build a legacy that's able to be passed down or sold. It's probably not a good way to operate in this negative space, so I think that's important.
Speaker 2:That's one of the inconsistencies. If you say, hey, gambling's a problem, If you go gambling, there goes your family's money, your kid's school money, all the things that you're going to ruin your family by becoming a gambling addict, they're correct. That's a fear thing. So then you see your best friend buddy go and win two grand on the football game. You're like you know he's all right, he didn't blow his friend, Maybe I'll try it. It's that temptation leading you down the path of the gambling addict. So the fear didn't stop you. Because you saw the inconsistency when you've based it on the reward, you understand. If it's the religion, it's that God forgave you for the worst thing you could ever do. It's the grace that you're living with is so much more natural and fulfilling to want to do the right thing than want to do the right thing and be like he'll forgive me. That's not because you'll fall down that gambling path. You're going to go do the wrong thing over and over and over again. Now you're so far from the grace aspect. You've lost view.
Speaker 1:You said something earlier and you said it again in the rules, and there was a lack of consistency that made you immediately start to question things even more. I think, as a business owner, if you are going to put in core values or you're going to put in a community guidelines, whatever it is, you have to be willing to live and die by those. And what I mean is is, if someone doesn't fit you, ha, you can't bend it for people, and I think that's what you saw and what you're getting Like. The lack of the inconsistencies create exposure and create problems right. So if you are going to say you know, if you don't, like I have a friend who I gamified his coaching program and if you fail to do the task, like, and these people sign up for this, it's not like they're unaware and suddenly, but it's a daily thing.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:They have to do stuff daily. And if you fail to do the stuff daily, you get locked out and you have to then complete it to get allowed back in. If you do that three times, you're removed from the program. No refunds, right, and it has created an immense completion rate of his course. Right, because people want the accountability that's part of the process, you know. But if he allowed someone who failed three times to then come back in the course, it ruins the whole thing. And so it's tough because, clearly, if you kick someone out who's paid money and do not allow them back, they're not going to be happy about it. Right, they get, and they're going to make a lot of, they're going to make a lot of noise. But having that level of discipline to follow the rules you set out is so important, even down to like when people say, hey, the sale ends at midnight Monday the 31st and then you go there.
Speaker 2:You know Tuesday and it's the sale still on, you know.
Speaker 1:Tuesday and it's the sale still on. You now question everything, right, and it's these, in today's day and age, it's this subconscious communication, things that are happening, that aren't said, but it like reveals a lot, right, and we've all had those emails from internet marketers where it's like, oh, the site crashed. We're extending the sale one more day. And it's like, when? When did the site crash? Show me the crash report, Cause I know it's not, it's a tactic. Right, In the beginning those things worked because it was new.
Speaker 1:But when you've gotten one from three different people, you start to realize, oh, wait a minute, this is just a tactic, this is not the truth. And as soon as you create um doubt with a buyer or potential buyer, it makes a sale that much harder. So you know, once you've sold them, to keep them in the community, to keep them a part of the tribe which, hopefully, is going to strengthen the business, and you know reoccurring sales and things like that, you have to be consistent, not just in the sale but in the community, and you have to be willing to live and die on the rules you set forth or you can't have the rules.
Speaker 2:I don't mind the rules. Like I said, I didn't mind when I was late for chapel. If I could kitchen duty during bedtime, yeah, too easy to get up on time. Absolutely, I know the rules. I for some reason didn't get there. But the attitude of you have to be at chapel half an hour early tomorrow because you failed, that's fine too. I know the rules and I didn't abide. You should say, oh, you have to have extra devotions because you didn't make chapel on time. Yeah, you're making it an issue in my head and heart. You don't know anything about and you don't get a say. So now I have an issue with the consequences. But when it's just a real thing, if you say, hey, we're, and then it is and someone doesn't get it, that's a consequence of their own actions and that's okay.
Speaker 2:People don't mind consequence. If you're speeding, you get a ticket. You can be mad all you want, but you're getting the ticket, you know the rules and you just decided to go over the limit anyway. So it's like that's the difference. That's a consistency thing. When I look at the way that the school I was in was working, they, they made everything that you're wrong and your heart issue and you're going to hell, like you have to be straightened out. It's like no, no, no, no, it's a mistake. So there's consequences for your actions. That's fine, and I accepted them. When they said you should apologize to school, you're out, and I was like pack my shit.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think honestly, we'll start to wrap it up, but I think the biggest thing I have taken away listening to you is, if you're trying to build a tribe, really, what we talked about today is all the things you shouldn't do in terms, because because it is what drove you away right, you were putting into environment and it from what you're saying, you were very open to a lot of stuff, but it was the inconsistencies, it was, it was the punishment that didn't match the the crime, right, like you know, if you drop a piece of trash, you got arrested and put in jail for three years.
Speaker 2:That's a little excessive.
Speaker 1:And you know, you end up with clean sidewalks. But the first person who gets punished it's probably over the top, right. And so my point is is, if you have a community or you have a group and you're wondering why people aren't sticking on, you're wondering why you can't retain members, maybe you start to look at some of the inconsistencies in the product, inconsistencies in the community. It's logic, because it's, it seems like a lot of time, a lot of things for you is like. I mean, you even went back. So it wasn't like you were like I got to get out of this place. There was a lot you liked, you know, because, again, this is- I signed up for the rules.
Speaker 2:I understand the rules. When they were nuanced with, however, someone was feeling. I was like, no, I'm not having it. But the reward, consequence, behavior thing was generally I was fine with. These are the rules I signed up for. Oh well, it's what I've chosen to go do, so I'm going to do my best. But when they come and say, hey, you were late for chapel, you get a punishment. And say, hey, you were late for chapel, you get a punishment and said, hey, is there a reason you were late? Did your alarm clock break? Do we need to get you a new one? How do you need help with this? Is this a prayer issue? Are you just not wanting to go to chapel? Are you angry at God for some reason? That's a whole different issue we should go to chapel extra for. But it wasn't a. The attitude of even the dean of women was to make sure it's the right length, like they didn't give you the benefit of a doubt in your own attitude and your own heart issue.
Speaker 1:For me it was a huge, not a chance. You know, all those little things are done for control, because if you can't do those little things, they can't control you on the big well, they didn't do that either so you know that, yeah, but obviously reasons why your worldview going in was completely different.
Speaker 1:If you had been indoctrinated in that thought process from childhood always had to have your ankles covered, you would have. You would have had been so self-conscious you would have never allowed your ankles to show because you weren't raised that way. Like you put your dress on and maybe it's a little shorter because you've grown, and you're like all right, whatever, because, like, your mind's not in a, in a. This is a horrible thing. I'm going to go to hell because I'm enticing men and they're going to want to attack me or whatever. So, but again, it's like you look at how other cultures indoctrinate their people into following rules that in the West we don't necessarily agree with. And it's from childhood, right, like you don't have agree with. And it's from childhood, right, like you, you don't have.
Speaker 1:You don't have a lot of people who are converting to terrorist organizations in their forties, right, they're usually, they're usually a part of it. Something crazy has to happen for that. But but like most of the time, these people are raised in these situations. It's the same of racism and things like that. Nobody's choosing at 20 to suddenly be racist, like, oh, I haven't been racist my whole life, but I think that's the way I want to go, like normally, it's an indoctrination. They're grown up that way, those beliefs are imprinted on them and so they don't have the other side. And when the other side is presented to them, you know many people have converted, have given that up because they see the lack of logic in their thinking.
Speaker 2:Well, we had some of it that I agreed with, like my mom and dad's like no spaghetti straps, no matter what, and I was like that's weird, but okay, I feel like it was modest enough and I snuck one in one time when I was a senior in high school, but that's. I was like now that I'm a parent too, I get it Like, oh, you want some modesty rules, and even my mom, high school you're taking it off. I was like, oh, okay, so we can put it on, but it's not overbearing and overwhelming. Trying to make a statement Like dad said no dark nail polish. I was like why he goes? It looks like you're trying to be a goth. We don't believe in fear and death. You're going to be saved and go to heaven, but we do believe. It looks like you're trying to act rebellious and gothy. So I don't like it. It wasn't a Bible thing, it wasn't. You're sinning by cutting your hair, you can. But he's like, oh, I wish it was longer. I was like, well, I got it now and I like it too.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that was the big mistake. If your dad's principle is we don't believe in fear and death, and then you go to a school that everything is fear and death. I can see the difficulty.
Speaker 2:No, we live by grace. We made mistakes and a lot of times, if my parents talked to us, there was a consequence for your actions. You're getting up at two to clean the kitchen, or my dad would sit down with us and be like, listen, we're going to pray about it, we're going to talk about it. You know where is this coming from? Like they're curious on what we're doing wrong. Is it an actual issue they have to talk to us about? Or is it just a mistake? Or we didn't think clearly what we were doing at the time? Because we're kids. Don't steal the golf course. Man should have known Stealing is wrong. You're right, that's bad.
Speaker 1:Look how that turned out. Is there anything else like for a business owner listening, you know, when you're looking at cults and cult principles. Is there anything else you think or things you wanted to share today that we haven't touched on?
Speaker 2:I think it's been extraordinarily negative. It was my school upbringing was very negative in that regard and it gave me that vision of when it came out later, the whole you know happy, shiny people, documentary and the Duggars and all the stuff that followed the rules that I actually don't agree with. That made sense to me. That now it's been labeled a cult, whatever, but when it started the principles were great and it was to help others and help you have the most successful, best life. So the same thing with the Emily thing and the way that we help people run businesses. When somebody asked us on our podcast last season how do you determine the price point of your course? It's like well, you understand your value per hour, what you're giving to that client. If they do follow the course, go to the event, get motivated, If they learn something that will bring $10,000 into their business, that $10,000 ticket was worth buying. It was worth being there, because now you're going to make that 10,000 over and over and over again by something you've learned.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think you know, and just to finish that thought, it's the value of transformation you know, in when you understand, when you have the thing the person wants. Well, you have the path to the thing the person wants. Well, you have the path to the thing the person wants. Sometimes, you know you have to be willing to show them because they might not know. They don't know what they don't know, and so the price of your product you know what's fair, based on the value of the transformation and, depending on how you look at it, it's going to change right, because you can look at it as a gym membership. You know average gym membership what 29 to 15, 49, 99 at a big box gym.
Speaker 1:But let's just say that someone who gets a gym membership and then starts working out loses a hundred pounds, gains a ton of confidence, meets the love of the life, has three children like they're an amazing dad. Their children grow up, they have grandchildren. Ask them what they would have paid for that life. Then the $49.99 a month is pennies, right, and so that's why you have gyms that are $150,000 a year. And the environment. Maybe they have a better structured way to get you there. Maybe they have more help beyond just the workout right, nutrition, recovery like mental, all the different stuff, the holistic approach. So it's very important to understand a lot of these things, especially like cult building principles. The reason you do want to look at it as a business owner is because what you're trying to do, hopefully, with your products is you're, is you're trying to change someone's life, and that goes even for, like that's the difference the one pastor downstairs who's running the school that works from home, or the the the church in the building.
Speaker 2:I was always after you to show you that his kids are best or you're going to get in trouble if he catches you doing something wrong. And I was like I don't even like you. You're obviously doing things wrong we don't know about and we'll never know about and I don't want to know about. He was like, came off as like slimy, controlling, manipulative, kiss ass to Bill Gothard when he walked in the door. And then, you know, papa Shoemaker, who called himself Papa Shoe instead of the dean of the school, was like hey, you know the rules, come on, you get kitchen duty now. Now you get kitchen duty, get up for chapel. Tomorrow they get a different. He's not trying to control you, he's like trying to keep you accountable. This person is trying to be a dick to you and control you and show that he's better.
Speaker 2:You can tell, though, now when you go to a business meeting. If you're looking at a seminar, you can know that those people on stage are either trying, when you start to feel a person out, where they're coming from. So I say it's logic and motivation and reward versus fear. But when you do go and talk about the fear, if it's for your benefit, it's still good. Go to the gym, eat less bread All those things are good rules. If you eat the bread well, no wonder your scale didn't drop. Bread's delicious, but that's how I got to know.
Speaker 2:That helped me the most in business is human behavior. When I go meet someone in the room if it's a seminar of 50 people we've been in many and spoken we go meet all the people that we just talked in front of and told them how to run somewhat of a decent business. When somebody is asking us questions, you can feel if they're trying to take something from you, if they're trying to manipulate you or get you to give them something, or you can tell when someone's genuinely thankful that you talked, has questions for you, are trying to better themselves and you now want to help them. It's a different dynamic and so being raised, the way that I was raised, taught me so much about human behavior and that you understand where that person's probably coming from, without judging them Like, oh, that's not for me. They probably are in a different mind state than I want to be a part of.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, I think it's good to look at stuff and I think if you're an ethical person, you can figure out how to use it for good, you know. It's why I like to study everything that I can. When it comes to certain things, I like both. You do a lot, but I like both sides of perspective. I don't want to like, I don't want just to follow one bias. I want to hear the other side and sometimes it's just to like, solidify my idea. Like they're wrong, like. But I want to hear your opinions because I want to understand why I'm wrong.
Speaker 1:And, interestingly enough, typically what I find is we're actually closer to the middle than people realize. We just have a different, um way of applying the knowledge. So we have a different. We disagree on the application, but when you actually look at it, we both actually believe the same knowledge. Like we have the same foundation. We just like. And look at the denominations in church right, same text, same belief system, completely different application across, across, like most denominations, right and um. I don't know why I went there, but my, my point with that was just simply that oftentimes we actually agree more than we disagree. I think if you have an ethical compass, you can learn all about these cult principles and you'll figure out how to use them in your business, because there's power to it, there's a reason it works and, like you said, it comes back to human behavior.
Speaker 2:Every 10. Yeah.
Speaker 1:All right, everyone. I think that's it for this episode of Paid to Create. Make sure you like, subscribe whatever channel you're on YouTube, spotify, itunes. We'll see you next time.
